Some pro progression between kingdoms quotes
“The brethren direct me to say that the Church has never announced a definite doctrine upon this point. Some of the brethren have held the view that it was possible in the course of progression to advance from one glory to another, invoking the principle of eternal progression; others of the brethren have taken the opposite view. But as stated, the Church has never announced a definite doctrine on this point.â€
-Secretary to the First Presidency in a 1952 letter; and again in 1965
“None would inherit this earth when it became celestial and translated into the presence of God but those who would be crowned as Gods — all others would have to inherit another kingdom — they would eventually have the privilege of proving themselves worthy and advancing to a celestial kingdom but it would be a slow process [progress?].â€
-Brigham Young, in Wilford Woodruff Journal, 5 Aug 1855
“Once a person enters these glories there will be eternal progress in the line of each of these particular glories, but the privilege of passing from one to another (though this may be possible for especially gifted and faithful characters) is not provided for.â€
-Joseph F. Smith, Improvement Era 14:87 [November 1910]
“I am not a strict constructionalist, believing that we seal our eternal progress by what we do here. It is my belief that God will save all of His children that he can: and while, if we live unrighteously here, we shall not go to the other side in the same status, so to speak, as those who lived righteously; nevertheless, the unrighteous will have their chance, and in the eons of the eternities that are to follow, they, too, may climb to the destinies to which they who are righteous and serve God, have climbed to those eternities that are to come.â€
-J. Reuben Clark, Church News, 23 April 1960, p. 3
“It is reasonable to believe, in the absence of direct revelation by which alone absolute knowledge of the matter could be acquired, that, in accordance with God’s plan of eternal progression, advancement from grade to grade within any kingdom, and from kingdom to kingdom, will be provided for. But if the recipients of a lower glory be enabled to advance, surely the intelligences of higher rank will not be stopped in their progress; and thus we may conclude, that degrees and grades will ever characterize the kingdoms of our God. Eternity is progressive; perfection is relative; the essential feature of God’s living purpose is its associated power of eternal increase.â€
-James E. Talmage, The Articles of Faith [1899 edition] pp. 420-421
A few more interesting quotes…
You that are mourning about your children straying away will have your sons and your daughters. If you succeed in passing through these trials and afflictions and receive a resurrection, you will, by the power of the Priesthood, work and labor, as the Son of God has, until you get all your sons and daughters in the path of exaltation and glory. This is just as sure as that the sun rose this morning over yonder mountains. Therefore, mourn not because all your sons and daughters do not follow in the path that you have marked out to them, or give heed to your counsels. Inasmuch as we succeed in securing eternal glory, and stand as saviors, and as kings and priests to our God, we will save our posterity. When Jesus went through that terrible torture on the cross, He saw what would be accomplished by it; He saw that His brethren and sistersCthe sons and daughters of GodCwould be gathered in, with but few exceptionsCthose who committed the unpardonable sin. That sacrifice of the divine Being was effectual to destroy the powers of Satan. I believe that every man and woman who comes into this life and passes through it, that life will be a success in the end. It may not be in this life. It was not with the antedeluvians. They passed through troubles and afflictions; 2,500 years after that, when Jesus went to preach to them, the dead heard the voice of the Son of God and they lived. They found after all that it was a very good thing that they had conformed to the will of God in leaving the spiritual life and passing through this world.
Lorenzo Snow, MS 56:49-53; Collected Discourses 3:364-65.
The question of advancement within the great divisions of glory
celestial, terrestrial, and telestial; as also the question of
advancement from one sphere of glory to another remains to be
considered. In the revelation from which we have summarized what has
been written here, in respect to the different degrees of glory, it is
said that those of the terrestrial glory will be ministered unto by
those of the celestial; and those of the telestial will be ministered
unto by those of the terrestrial—that is, those of the higher glory
minister to those of a lesser glory. I can conceive of no reason for
all this administration of the higher to the lower, unless it be for
the purpose of advancing our Father’s children along the lines of
eternal progression. Whether or not in the great future, full of so
many possibilities now hidden from us, they of the lesser glories
after education and advancement within those spheres may at last
emerge from them and make their way to the higher degrees of glory
until at last they attain to the highest, is not revealed in the
revelations of God, and any statement made on the subject must partake
more or less of the nature of conjecture. But if it be granted that
such a thing is possible, they who at the first entered into the
celestial glory—having before them the privilege also of eternal
progress—have been moving onward, so that the relative distance
between them and those who have fought their way up from the lesser
glories may be as great when the latter have come into the degrees of
celestial glory in which the righteous at first stood, as it was at
the commencement. Thus: Those whose faith and works are such only as
to enable them to inherit a telestial glory, may arrive at last where
those whose works in this life were such as to enable them to entrance
into the celestial kingdom—they may arrive where these were, but never
where they are.”
B. H. Roberts, New Witnesses for God 1:391-392.
Some years ago I was in Washington, D.C., with President Harold B. Lee. Early one morning he called me to come into his hotel room. He was sitting in his robe reading Gospel Doctrine, by President Joseph F. Smith, and he said, “Listen to this!
“ ‘Jesus had not finished his work when his body was slain, neither did he finish it after his resurrection from the dead; although he had accomplished the purpose for which he then came to the earth, he had not fulfilled all his work. And when will he? Not until he has redeemed and saved every son and daughter of our father Adam that have been or ever will be born upon this earth to the end of time, except the sons of perdition. That is his mission. We will not finish our work until we have saved ourselves, and then not until we shall have saved all depending upon us; for we are to become saviors upon Mount Zion, as well as Christ. We are called to this mission.’ †22
“There is never a time,†the Prophet Joseph Smith taught, “when the spirit is too old to approach God. All are within the reach of pardoning mercy, who have not committed the unpardonable sin.†23
Boyd K. Packer, “The Brilliant Morning of Forgiveness,†Ensign, Nov. 1995, 18
Comment by C.Kraus — July 27, 2008 @ 7:29 pm
Wouldn’t it be wise to also include some quotes to the contrary (because they exist) so the reader doesn’t come to the false conclusion that this is the only data available because of the bias of the author?
Comment by NOYDMB — August 23, 2008 @ 9:56 pm
Well since this page is titled “Some pro progression between kingdoms quotes” I’d say it wouldn’t make much sense to include those quotes here.
I think it is a given that the many details of our pre and post mortal lives have not been clearly revealed by God yet. You are very right that there have been conflicting speculations by past church leaders on the subject.
Comment by Geoff J — August 23, 2008 @ 10:15 pm
I understand the positions here. However, can one of you cite any scripture suggesting that progression between kingdoms is possible.
One of my issues on this matter is that a number of scriptures support that our status in the next life is at least somewhat fixed (at its simplest, heaven if you’re good, hell if you’re bad). Perhaps the two most frequently cited are sections 76 and 132 of the Doctrine and Covenants. Section 76 states that “where God and Christ dwell,” those in the Telestial Kingdom “cannot come.” Moreover, section 132 states that the angels in the celestial kingdom who “did not abide [Christ's] law, . . . cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity.” D&C 132:16-17. I understand this scripture relates to progression within the Celestial Kingdom, not progression between kingdoms, but it still supports the idea that eternal progression is somewhat limited. Combined with section 76, I think this is strong scriptural support that we cannot progress between kingdoms.
I ask for scriptures because statements from prophets and apostles on the matter are not consistent.
Any thoughts?
Comment by Swen — November 26, 2008 @ 11:07 am
Swen,
See D&C 19. Specifically the part where God says that even though some scriptures indicated certain post-mortal states are permanent they really aren’t.
Comment by Geoff J — November 29, 2008 @ 11:44 am
Geoff J
LOVE this blog.
But I’m confused on D&C 19. It might be because I’m up late, but I didn’t find the scripture you mentioned. Could you cite it?
Comment by Greg Wilcox — January 4, 2009 @ 6:22 am
Greg,
This is the specific section. The basic idea is “sure I let you believe the punishment was permanent but in reality it’s not. I just let you believe that for motivational purposes.”
Comment by Geoff J — January 4, 2009 @ 2:23 pm
Greg,
For a long argument about the meaning of D&C 19, you could look here if you were so inclined.
Comment by Jacob J — January 4, 2009 @ 6:38 pm
We had the DC76 lesson in Sunday School today, which allowed for some reflection on this topic.
Basic premise understood….There is no official statement or doctrine on kingdom swapping. General authorities over the years have come out on both sides. Moreover, we know that man is not infallible, even our prophets. Brigham Young’s personal teachings on Adam God doctrine were clearly and emphatically disavowed by the church when SWK was prophet. It is entirely possible that there is a 3rd alternative to this present discussion that we can’t even conceive right now.
The Mormon God I know must be aligned with eternal laws. Light cleaveth to light, intelligence to intelligence. The glory of God is intelligence (DC93). God gives commandments through which intelligence can be added upon and blessed. These commandments are aligned with eternal laws. However, God is not omnipotent in the full sense of the word meaning that he can do anything and still be god. Moreover, he cannot force obedience, as his plan respects the agency of intelligence. I still can have perfect trust in him, because I know that he definitely can do anything he wants, and that his wants are all aligned with the principles/laws that give him his power and can magnify me. God’s honor is his power (DC29:36). I honor him and want to obey his commandments, thereby progressing his work and glory…and aligning me with it.
My God could actually cease to be God if he allowed certain things to happen….like letting mercy rob justice (Alma 42). Did God not love Jesus? What then was the purpose of the infinite suffering/pain/grief to which he was wholly subjected? Of course the Father loved his son, but still there had to be an atonement so that mercy could encircle her arms around the demands of justice.
A few logic gaps for me in the kingdom swap argument:
1) 1/3 host cast out. Was there a D-day in the premortal world, and thereafter everyone who kept their first estate gets a guaranteed path to perfection/exaltation…but only after they go through whatever progressive process to get there? Basically implying that the Father’s plan achieved the same result as Satan’s….but with a lot more work and suffering. How is that just/fair/& merciful to the sons of perdition?
2) The Alma 34…don’t delay the time of your repentance to the night when no more work can be done line of arguments. Kingdom swapper counter argument…it is a simple jedi mind trick. Correlated to #3 below.
3) This life is a test to see if we will do all things whatsoever we are commanded (Abraham 3:25). Kingdom swapper counter argument….life is a test after which we have a judgment and initial assignment to a customized graded “glory” point, each of us along the same track to eternal lives. Some get a 100 yard head start. Others get 1,000 miles. Some are still dead at the starting line.
4) Principle that there are intelligences some superior and some inferior….to infinity. (Abraham 3:19). If it is possible to progress between kingdoms to an Ultimate exaltation and eternal lives…then God the Father would also be continuously progressing to something greater, more powerful? Recognizing that this reasoning is constrained by time delimited thinking, we could never ever have everything that the Father has, as he has explicitly promised.
Just a few random thoughts. I enjoyed finding/reading this blog.
Comment by J.D. — May 31, 2009 @ 4:51 pm
I lean the other way JD.
1) I think sons of perdition could choose progression as well because they retain free agency.
2) Now is the time to repent because delaying repentance means we delay blessings and happiness (wickedness never was happiness after all)
3) This life is a test but that does not mean it is the only test. Besides, the punishment should fit the crime and no amount of sin 70 years would match up with literally eternal punishment.
4) Sure some intelligences are more intelligent than others but if all can progress or retrogress all that is an ever-changing thing.
See a post on this here if you would like to discuss further.
Comment by Geoff J — May 31, 2009 @ 6:32 pm
In my opinion, the idea of *guaranteed* salvation in any kingdom of glory is the epitome of false doctrine.
That is not to say that the Lord doesn’t have a *plan* to save all of his children, but rather that any salvation worthy of the name requires some serious effort on their part (cf 1 Tim 2:4-6, DC 138:58-60).
As far as the day of repentance is concerned, the proper answer is “the time to repent is *now*” – whenever that is. If you backslide, it will just be that much harder to turn things around.
Comment by Mark D. — May 31, 2009 @ 7:23 pm
@JD
1) Even if we suppose that the Father’s and Satan’s plan achieve the same thing, there are some huge fundamental differences. The Father’s plan is about free agency, and learning for ourselves how to become like him. Yes it was to be hard and grueling, but it was our process. “They shall not come out until they have payed the utmost farthing” also comes to mind when thinking of movement between kingdoms (i.e. it will not be easy) Satan’s plan was to force us all to do what is right so that we did not have to do anything of our own (plus he wanted all the glory for it). Those who chose that path wanted all of the rewards without any of the costs involved. I am also with GeoffJ on this that I do not see why they might not get the chance some day to progress as well.
2) I think that this is perfectly answered by D&C 19:7, i.e. for motivational purposes. It has been said by many a prophet that in this life it is much easier for us to change and to align ourselves with God. Take advantage of the time you have here because that is exactly what it is for.
3 & 4) I have lumped these together because I think that they are both answered by the same principle. If you reread the quotes in favor of the kingdom progression principle you will see that most of them addressed the idea that somehow in being able to move up those people would become the same level as those who had attained the higher level through their actions in this life. If you believe in eternal progression, then we are all progressing forward and therefore the relative “distance” between people does not really change, just their access to certain blessings. In regards to the whole idea that we will have everything that the Father has, I do not think that we will ever have the same amount of glory as him since each of us glorify him ourselves. I do not see any way to get on top (maybe that is why Lucifer pulled the stunt he did, though that is complete speculation) and I see no reason why it needs to be otherwise. Also, Isaiah 53:12 states: “Therefore will I divide him (Christ) a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong. . . ” Just food for thought that one.
Comment by Karl M. — August 18, 2009 @ 9:33 pm
This is for Swen who asked for a scripture.
D&C 29:
29 And now, behold, I say unto you, never at any time have I declared from mine own mouth that they should return, for where I am they cannot come, for they have no power.
30 But remember that all my judgments are not given unto men;
Comment by Aaron Tress — August 20, 2009 @ 10:25 pm
In section 19 the words are purposefully phrased to misdirect us for OUR gain. I don’t know if you can call it deception because it is for our good. Deception has a negative flavor because it is almost always associated with personal gain. Perhaps it should be called misdirection.
God shows his love for us by misdirecting us. I think you are right that there are other ideas he allows us to entertain because they are good for us. God likely directs us to these thoughts, because they are good for us while not explicitly lying. This happens though omission, misdirection or by calling someone who is convinced of wrong but useful ideas. His greatest concern is for us. That is why we worship him.
My guess is that several ideas that are commonly held in the church are wrong. I have guessed at several. There may be some core ideas that are false. The danger is that we have no clear direction from above on what is right in these areas because God does not reveal it, since this knowledge will do more harm than good.
We are supposed to emulate God. Think of McConkie in this light. He may be showing you how to act like God by reinforcing wrong but beneficial ideas.
The lovers of truth will wince at this thought, but it appears to be God’s way. His foremost concern is for us, before a reflexive attachment to the complete truth. This may be the deep message of section 19.
One a personal note there are some ideas that I have become convinced of that have deeply increase my love for God, but would confuse many. These ideas blossom from believing that God is perfectly just and perfectly loving. I cling to these ideas because with my current level of light believing the thoughts contrary to these ideas would make harm my vision of the beautiful God. The God I know is a glorious being best described in the new testament as “in who there is no darkness at all”.
There is to be milk before meat. The ideas of plural probations or progression between kingdoms harm most new testimonies and lessen the desire to repent. I would be very careful sharing these ideas even if they reveal a God that will save every soul he possible can (read section 76 around verse 44). This idea reflects a God whose every care is his children and their well being.
Comment by Lane — September 14, 2009 @ 4:00 pm
I don’t know if this point has been made before on this blog, but neither progression between kingdoms nor multiple mortal probations are necessary to have eternal progression for everyone. For a scriptural basis for this, think about the parable in D&C 88. Either you see the alternative possibility in the parable or you don’t.
Comment by Bill B. — January 20, 2010 @ 6:50 am