BYU 26 Utah 23 (OT)

November 28, 2009    By: Geoff J @ 7:41 pm   Category: Sports

The game came down to the wire again this year. As with the ’06 and ’07 games, BYU took care of business in the end. Rock on Cougars.

And for your viewing pleasure, I present the last play of the game:

and of course:

Update — A motivational poster spoof I just saw:


  1. Nice win for the seniors. The missed fumble call in the 4th gave the Utes a break they shouldn’t have had and which probably would’ve prevented overtime altogether. But I’m glad BYU pulled it out.

    Comment by Christopher — November 28, 2009 @ 8:03 pm

  2. Turns out the call was correct on that fumble. The ball carrier’s helmet came off so by rule the play is called dead on the spot.

    Comment by Geoff J — November 28, 2009 @ 8:44 pm

  3. Factoid: BYU has now won 11 consecutive games when the game was decided by a touchdown or less.

    Comment by Geoff J — November 28, 2009 @ 8:49 pm

  4. Christopher,

    Team Stat Comparison

    Yeah, that one “missed fumble” which “gave the Utes a break they shouldn’t have had”. Looks a lot different when you look at the actual stats. I’m always amazed when people are selectively blind.

    Other than there being a shameful amount of personal fouls on both sides, it was exciting as always to see the rivalry through, even when my team loses.

    Now if you’ll excuse me, I have to go drink my sorrows away with some Diet Coke.

    Comment by Riley — November 28, 2009 @ 9:08 pm

  5. I always enjoy a down-to-the-wire game, and this one didn’t disappoint.

    BYU, congrats on 2nd place.
    Utah, congrats on 3rd place.

    Comment by L-d Sus — November 28, 2009 @ 9:53 pm

  6. I’m a BYU fan (great win, I’m ecstatic) but I found Max Hall’s post-game comments interesting:

    “I don’t like Utah. In fact, I hate them. I hate everything about them. I hate their program, their fans. I hate everything,” Hall said. “It felt really good to send those guys home.”

    When asked to go in to more detail:

    “I think the whole university and their fans and the organization is classless,” Hall said. “They threw beer on my family and stuff last year and did a whole bunch of nasty things. I don’t respect them and they deserved to lose.”

    I have personally seen Ute fans be down right nasty. Cougar fans are certainly no saints (pun ambiguous) but my personal experience has been more negative with Ute fans. Still, it seems almost as classless as what he claims Ute fans have done to him and his family to make such heated comments. Better to let actions on the field speak for themselves? Those kind of comments just seems to mirror the almost psychopathic hatred many Ute fans have for BYU. Thoughts?

    Comment by Jacob B. — November 28, 2009 @ 9:58 pm

  7. Jacob B, I agree.

    Still, go Cougs. Gotta love the win in OT.

    Comment by Jacob J — November 28, 2009 @ 10:07 pm

  8. Those incendiary comments were really funny I thought.

    Too bad they will now overshadow this great win.

    Comment by Geoff J — November 28, 2009 @ 10:13 pm

  9. I got last minute seats in the north end-zone right in the middle of the Utah section. Nothing like seeing the Ute fans sulk away after that exciting victory by the cougs. It was great to have them finailly shut up after a game full of F-bombs and calling BYU players “homos”

    Comment by scW — November 28, 2009 @ 10:16 pm

  10. Geoff and Jacob B,

    What kills me about Halls comment is that my wife and my family and I sat right next to him, Pitta, and their wives at Braden Brown’s wedding luncheon a little while ago. My wife and I really enjoyed talking to their wives and Pitta (Max kept walking out into the hall on his cell phone). Their wives were seriously the most pleasant people to be with. Made it totally enjoyable to sit with complete strangers.

    In the course of our conversations we talked about the BYU-Utah game last year. Mrs Hall told us how horrible it was due to the extremely rude manner in which some utah fans talked about Max. I specifically asked her if people got in her face or threw stuff at her. To which she replied: no. Take that how you want.

    So for me, I can understand being upset with how rude SOME fans and players can be but to show such blatant ignorance by lumping us “regular” Utah fans or players with the “sauced-jerk” Utes is disappointing, and revealing. Too bad that even in victory he felt threatened enough that he had to alienate an entire demographic like that. We have too much hate in this exciting rivalry as it is, and to throw gasoline on the fire like that is really too bad.

    Comment by Riley — November 29, 2009 @ 1:37 am

  11. I have been a BYU fan since I was a child – my father has a couple of degrees from there. I went to college at the University of Utah.

    I am still a BYU fan in large part because of the amazingly boorish behavior on the part of a large number of U. fans at a BYU vs. Utah game in Salt Lake. As if they had some sort of personal vendetta against the LDS Church, for one thing.

    I have sat next to some really annoying BYU fans at games in Provo in the past, but nothing like that.

    Comment by Mark D. — November 29, 2009 @ 6:29 am

  12. I agree that Hall’s comments are more than a little over the top though, and I hope he doesn’t feel that way during his saner moments.

    Comment by Mark D. — November 29, 2009 @ 6:32 am

  13. Ah, thanks for the clarification, Geoff. That makes sense, I suppose.

    Riley, your call for less incendiary rhetoric and more friendliness between the two teams and their fan bases is a bit amusing given your silly denunciation of me as “selectively blind.”

    Comment by Christopher — November 29, 2009 @ 7:42 am

  14. Brother Hall’s comments are really pretty weak and are what one would expect from a rival. So he hates Utah?!?!? That’s a surprise to anyone? BYU players gloat when they win?!? That’s a surprise to anyone? They’re no different than scores of other college athletes, in fact they’re par for the course. What’s the story there? Same is true for Utah players. Compare what goes on between other rivals and in other conferences on a regular basis (Duke basketball home games are an often clever and biting roasting of the opposing team by Duke fans) and this is small potatos. Sit back and enjoy the fireworks that will follow from those offended by Hall’s silly comments. That will be way more entertaining than anything he’s said so far. I only wish he would have played to type and invoked God or the Church in his denunciation of Utah. That would have provided even more comedy and blowback. This is what makes rivalries so much fun, and I say that as an ACC fan with little interest in either program outside of what I’m regaled with at Church on a regular basis. (I only wish more BYU and Utah fans in my wards were as fair and balanced as the ones who comment here.)

    Comment by rbc — November 29, 2009 @ 8:54 am

  15. rbc:

    As far as I am aware, though the rivalry has always been extremely antagonistic on both sides, it is rare to get comments to the press like Hall’s. The SL Trib says that his comments will probably become a part of the growing lore surrounding the rivalry and the reporter at opined that he might be reprimanded by the MWC. Like his comments, hate them, think their weak, whatever, but they were not exactly par for the course. As I mentioned above, I think the dislike (hatred) of BYU borders on the psychopathic for many Ute fans, and I think it is more intense than BYU’s overall hatred of the U. But Hall should have risen above it with the win. Just like John Beck’s last second play which spoke for itself with the win, Hall should have done likewise.

    Comment by Jacob B. — November 29, 2009 @ 9:46 am

  16. What are Hall’s NFL prospects?

    Comment by Chris H. — November 29, 2009 @ 10:16 am

  17. One has to wonder if Hall is pretending to be a humorless twit doing an amusing send-up of the goofy BYU haters on the web.

    Comment by Peter LLC — November 29, 2009 @ 10:28 am

  18. Max Hall’s 2007 F-bomb.

    Max Hall’s 2009 F-bomb (five seconds into the 2nd quarter).

    Let’s just dump the righteous-BYU versus heathen-Utah stereotypes, okay?

    Comment by R. Gary — November 29, 2009 @ 11:45 am

  19. I suspect one of the factors contributing to the animosity is that these days BYU is a far more selective school than the University of Utah is. Average freshman ACT scores 28.2 and 23.5 respectively.

    Comment by Mark D. — November 29, 2009 @ 12:11 pm

  20. R. Gary, I can show you comparable stories with the Utah heathens dropping F-bombs, but can you show me the sister story to this from your beloved Utes? Didn’t think so.

    Comment by Jacob J — November 29, 2009 @ 12:14 pm

  21. Mark, this tension existed long before BYU became selective. My guess is that Max Hall’s GPA and ACT score had very little to do with his admission to BYU and that he probably does not “hate” Utah because of their academic inferiority.

    Comment by Chris H. — November 29, 2009 @ 12:17 pm

  22. I think we should move away from the concept that the use of the f-bomb is sign of unrighteousness.

    Comment by Chris H. — November 29, 2009 @ 12:22 pm

  23. Chris H, While I have no doubt that a number of BYU students are unjustifiably self righteous, I think the (academic) inferiority complex goes the other way. In any case, I think the people with more than a superficial problem are a tiny percentage on both sides.

    I never had a problem with the vast majority of fans on both sides, nor the students at both schools. The culture difference was jaw dropping in some respects when I was at the U. (late 80s), but other than the type of drivel that dominated the student newspaper there at the time, I never had a problem with it, and enjoyed my schooling there very much.

    Comment by Mark D. — November 29, 2009 @ 12:57 pm

  24. Jacob J, there are plenty of returned missionaries on both squads and Max Hall is one of them. His public on the field behavior shows simply that the rivalry isn’t about good versus evil. BYU (not righteousness) won the game.

    Comment by R. Gary — November 29, 2009 @ 2:39 pm

  25. Christopher,

    Calling for friendly respect doesn’t mean people can’t also be honest. To marginalize all that Utah did by “one call” (which was the right call as it turns out) is a good example of being selectively blind. I don’t know what to call it. The games stats seem to demonstrate that. Maybe instead of dwelling on that supposed critical hinge you will take a moment to consider why Utah was able to keep up with BYU even with 113 yards lost by penalties? See how easy it is for someone to use the same narrow excuse as you have?

    I’m just glad that this game was close. The day one of us starts beating the other like they’re Utah State is the day that this will no longer be fun.


    It’s far too easy to point out the rudeness of drunk Utah fans (which too many are), but I have trouble deciding if smug piety is any more elevating.

    For me, Mark D’s comment on scholastic selectivity and is amazingly conceded and is nothing but gasoline at this campfire(hopefully he is merely bating).

    I attribute the rude anti-mormon jabs from the Ute fans and the self-righteous piety from the Cougar fans to mental laziness.

    Here is what I propose: Us “regular Utah fans” will try to discourage our players from being “jerks” and our fellow fans from being “drunk-foulmouthed-antimormons” while you “regular BYU fans” try to discourage your players from “evoking election of God’s favor by righteous merit” and your fellow fans from being “smug-thin skinned-superiority complex victims”. Deal?

    Comment by Riley — November 29, 2009 @ 3:57 pm

  26. Riley, you’ve blown my one comment out of proportion. I never denied Utah any of the things they accomplished last night, nor did I ignore the statistics you linked to. I made a simple observation, which I acknowledged was incorrect when it was pointed out to me.

    Chill out.

    Comment by Christopher — November 29, 2009 @ 4:01 pm

  27. R. Gary,

    Seems to me you have brought a straw man into this conversation for no good reason. I see no one making good vs. evil arguments regarding the blue school and the red school. Why have you twice tried to introduce that idea here?

    Comment by Geoff J — November 29, 2009 @ 4:13 pm

  28. Chris H (#16),

    Hard to say what Hall’s NFL prospects are. I know he is not currently high on any mock drafts. He is undersized and doesn’t have a ton of speed or a cannon of an arm. I suspect getting drafted in the late rounds would be a real success for him.

    Comment by Geoff J — November 29, 2009 @ 4:15 pm

  29. I’m telling ya’ll, root for Nebraska this coming week (I was off by one).

    For TCU and Boise to go undefeated and for Cincinnati to leapfrog them into the championship game would be classic BCS mayhem. The last thing MWC fans want is Texas for Texas to win.

    Chris H., as far as I can tell no-one is talking up Hall for the NFL. But I’m not following such chatter very closely at present.

    Comment by John C. — November 29, 2009 @ 4:17 pm

  30. TCU has a BCS game locked up. Looks like BSU will likely get an invite too.

    The only remaining question is if TCU could somehow sneak into the title game. Their only chance of pulling that off is for Texas to lose. Cinci would probably need to lose too though. But worst case (getting into a BCS game other than the title game) ain’t bad for TCU.

    Comment by Geoff J — November 29, 2009 @ 4:23 pm

  31. Chris H (#22), brilliant point, brilliantly made. Who among us hasn’t dropped an f-bomb or two on national television. I won’t be throwing the first stone on this one.

    Comment by Jacob J — November 29, 2009 @ 4:26 pm

  32. Geoff J,

    Last night, the winningest quarterback in BYU history apparently said:

    “I don’t like Utah. In fact, I hate them — I hate everything about them,” said Hall. “I hate their program. I hate their fans. I hate everything. So, it feels good to send those guys home. They didn’t deserve it…. We deserved it.”

    I learned in Sunday School to hate evil (Alma 37:32). So I believe it was Max Hall who brought good vs. evil into this conversation. According to Hall, Utah (worthy of his hate) didn’t “deserve” to win, while his (unlike Utah) deserving Cougars did.

    Comment by R. Gary — November 29, 2009 @ 5:00 pm

  33. (snort!)

    That was a pathetic attempt a connecting the non-existent dots R. Gary. Max just said he hates the Utes. He is entitled to his own opinions. The only one insinuating the Utah = evil is you. I recommend you stop insinuating that.

    Comment by Geoff J — November 29, 2009 @ 5:12 pm

  34. Jacob J.,
    Eric Weddle converted to the LDS Church while playing at Utah (GASP! How could such a thing be possible?!?!?). So, your Cougars don’t have the conversion market cornered. Sorry.

    I’ll raise you one, too. Here’s yet another tale of a classless Ute .

    Comment by Mack — November 29, 2009 @ 6:10 pm

  35. Mack, but was Eric Weddle confirmed by Heisman Trophy-winning quarterback Ty Detmer? Didn’t think so. I bet whoever confirmed him wasn’t even nominated for a Heisman.

    Comment by Jacob J — November 29, 2009 @ 7:36 pm

  36. Hehe.

    If it’s not obvious, Jacob is just yanking all y’alls chains.

    Comment by Geoff J — November 29, 2009 @ 7:44 pm

  37. Max Hall’s apology is now online at KSL (and others)

    Comment by J. Michael — November 29, 2009 @ 9:17 pm

  38. Here’s the full statement.

    Comment by Geoff J — November 29, 2009 @ 9:22 pm

  39. Glad to hear he came to his senses.

    Comment by Mark D. — November 29, 2009 @ 9:51 pm

  40. I’m not sure he came to his senses. He may have been forced to issue the apology. Regardless, I am glad he issued it. But what the heck does “upmost” mean? Does he really think that’s a word?

    BTW, the “tackling” picture above is just wrong. I was at the game and I can tell you that the defensive players involved in that play were not making any attempt to tackle the receiver. They both were going for the ball, and were pretty close to getting it too. Unfortunately for Utah, Hall threaded the needle. It may have been a bad idea for both defenders to try for the ball at the same time, but there was no missed tackle on that play.

    Comment by MCQ — November 30, 2009 @ 12:15 am

  41. Glad to see Hall issued an apology/clarified his earlier remarks.

    MCQ, it looks like if the published statement initially said “upmost,” it has now been changed to “utmost.” Way to jump on Hall’s supposed grammatical errors, though. And for the record, “upmost” is a word.

    Comment by Christopher — November 30, 2009 @ 6:58 am

  42. You may be right about it being a word, Christopher, but it was obviously a grammatical error (not just a supposed one) or it would not have been changed. I’m always happy to point out errors for the less educated.

    Comment by MCQ — November 30, 2009 @ 7:36 am

  43. Yeah that “upmost” typo is an embarrassing gaffe for the BYU media folks.

    The fake motivational picture cracks me up. Therefore in my opinion it is not just wrong, it is just right.

    Comment by Geoff J — November 30, 2009 @ 8:19 am

  44. I’m elated with the win. As for Hall’s comments, some of my best friends are Ute fans and they are the greatest. They aren’t all classless.

    However, I attended the U law school during the 1984 season (Go National Champs!) and attended all but the last U game. I haven’t attended since. The student section began a cheer — “Spencer Kimball is a quee_, he always take it in the ____.” My 3 year old son who was attending the game with me asked me what that cheer meant. I said, “son, it means we’re leaving and never coming back.” I haven’t gone back and don’t intend to.

    The U sent a copy of the Daily Chronicle on Thanksgiving with the D News. It was slanderous and way worse than anything Hall said. BTW, Eric Weddle and Paul Krugar both stated that they hated BYU. Why no press there? Yeah, maybe the Y sets itself up for the double standard because it sports itself as a Christian entity. But year in and year out I watch the U football team come into the Y’s stadium and cheap shot, hit after plays, trash talk like drunken sailors and act like a bunch of high school jerks. Now I’m open to the possibility that I can’t see everything or see everything in a jaundiced manner because I’m true blue, but that’s how I see it. I don’t see it out of Air Force or San Diego, Colorado State or UNLV, or even — gulp — Wyoming. I see it when the Y plays the U. The personal fouls against the Y were without exception stupid retaliation against a Ute provocation. On at least 3 occasions during the game the ref is staring right at the Ute player as he smack a Y player the side of the head way after the play and . . . nothing. The Y does it and . . . boom: penalty. However, it is arguable that in the end that kind of boorish behavior cost the Utes the game. So keep it up guys! I’ll take the win every time.

    Comment by Blake — November 30, 2009 @ 8:50 am

  45. To follow up on Christopher’s comment — turns out “upmost” is a real word and means pretty much the same thing as utmost. It is not the most common word to use in that situation but it worked. What it does indicate is that Max himself wrote the explanation/apology. Bronco said as much earlier today as well:

    “The apology he issued (came) from him and no one else… if anyone thinks they’ve influenced his apology, that’s a mistake; he woke up, did all of that on his own… I haven’t talked to Max yet, nor has anyone else from our coaching staff. Max has done this completely on his own.”

    Comment by Geoff J — November 30, 2009 @ 9:30 am

  46. For those who went to the game I’d recommend taking some time to rewatch the filmed version. You’ll be surprised to see just how much trash talking both sides did. (I recall a BYU player (on the side line) calling a Ute player a “pussy” while he was trying to get up after being forced out of bounds. I also recall my good friend Braden Brown’s personal foul)

    No need to brush aside your teams actions as mere retaliation to provocation, whether you think they were stupid. Both teams played like spoiled little brats. I’m just hoping that TCU (and eventual MWC additions) will kick the crap out of both of these teams so they’ll wake up just play football.

    Comment by Riley — November 30, 2009 @ 10:30 am

  47. so they’ll wake up just play football

    Uhhh… being rude and mean and violent with each other is “playing football”.

    Comment by Geoff J — November 30, 2009 @ 10:44 am

  48. haha…Touché

    Comment by Riley — November 30, 2009 @ 11:28 am

  49. Congratulations to BYU for a hard-fought win and a fine season. I wish them the best of luck in their bowl. It is unfortunate that there has been a distraction from the work done on the field.

    Also, we should all feel free to drop f-bombs since both the Utes and Cougars do it. Right? A barely relevant anecdote:

    On Super Bowl Sunday of this year we were sitting in the chapel for sacrament meeting (a minor miracle) and as the closing prayer ended and the organist began to play the power went out. My then 5-year old son stood on his seat and yelled out, “What the…” at the top of his lungs and for what seemed like an eternity I prayed that he would say “heck” because really, he could have said anything depending on how closely he listens to what I say.

    As the eternity began to take a really long time I realized that he was in fact done yelling and hadn’t finished his exclamation! A Super Bowl Sunday miracle! Then they canceled the rest of church and we all went home.

    Since that time I’ve been trying to avoid all WT forms, including WTCrap, WTHeck, WTotherH, and WTF.

    Comment by a random John — November 30, 2009 @ 12:11 pm

  50. Max Hall reprimanded by Mountain West Conference. Lucky for him, he gets his potty-mouth swept under the rug.

    Comment by R. Gary — November 30, 2009 @ 1:00 pm

  51. Har! It’s really amusing how scandalized some folks are over a football player venting.

    Comment by Geoff J — November 30, 2009 @ 1:07 pm

  52. Venting after a win? Should you really ever need to do that? I always thought that if you won, you got the right to celebrate. I never heard that it gave you the right to then turn around and vent your feelings about the other team. There are words for that kind of behavior, and even most BYU fans know them.

    Comment by MCQ — November 30, 2009 @ 1:24 pm

  53. Oh the great MWC. I’m not a player or coach so I can speak my mind about the incompetence of the conference, it’s singular failure to do anything for the teams or obtain anything like an acceptable television contract — not to mention the lame-brained officiating that thinks it’s a penalty for an offense to try to deceive the defense.

    I would be willing to represent potty-mouth Max against any kind of retribution so that I can defend his 1st Amendment rights against such an organization. He is free to speak his mind to express his personal feelings about how his family was treated. Is he correct that all U fans are classless? Hardly. But he is entitled to say it. Where is the outrage about how his family was treated? Are the Ute defenders really claiming that the Y fans threw beer on them? Yelled obscenities at their families? Insulted their religious beliefs? I won’t defend rude behavior, but let’s not pretend that there is a parity of conduct here.

    Where was the outrage and public reprimand by the MWC when Weddle and Kruger expressed their feelings? I’m smelling a double standard here. Last week’s reprimand against Denney and an asst. coach for saying Air Force chop blocks is as lame as it gets — that is what Air Force does. They throw their bodies at defenders while chopping their feet out from under them. It is their standard practice. It doesn’t get called because it’s one the line of scrimmage . . . but it ought to be called.

    Comment by Blake — November 30, 2009 @ 1:33 pm

  54. MCQ: Venting after a win? Should you really ever need to do that?

    it’s the only time to vent — otherwise it just comes across as sour grapes. This way he can vent having won and speak what he feels because he earned the right to say it.

    Comment by Blake — November 30, 2009 @ 1:34 pm

  55. Where did you find that “Tackling: You’re doing it wrong” spoof? That is too precious. :)

    Comment by Clean Cut — November 30, 2009 @ 2:19 pm

  56. No that isn’t the “only” time to vent. One could argue that the proper time to vent is prior to the game or not at all. Lay your cards on the table, and then let your play speak for itself.

    Comment by a random John — November 30, 2009 @ 3:12 pm

  57. I’m a law student at the U and I did my undergrad at the Y. I rooted for the Y. The folks I know weren’t offended by the Max Hall comments, but it was still a dumb thing to say.

    I’ll just let you hear my 2 cents on the drama. I meet a lot of UU Mormons who subtly insinuate that they are in-fact more righteous because they didn’t attend the Y and they don’t need an honor code to be good. I can respect that, but there’s a certain smug superiority among some Mormon Utes (not all of them, of course.) I think a lot of these same kids will hide behind their red shirts in the MUSS while their No-mo compatriots hurl obscene insults at the other side. They may even appreciate that a gentile is being nasty to BYU so that they don’t have to sin themselves.

    While I do know a good share of self-righteous Zoobies, I don’t think that the Y has a monopoly on self righteousness. I’m super pissed at Max right now because now I have to deal with a bunch of self-righteous U students talking about how much better they are. For today they’re right, sadly.

    Comment by just_a_lurker — November 30, 2009 @ 3:42 pm

  58. I have to deal with a bunch of self-righteous U students talking about how much better they are. For today they’re right, sadly.

    Why are they better than BYU fans today?

    Comment by Geoff J — November 30, 2009 @ 3:46 pm

  59. I guess I could say that at least for today they have the moral high ground over Max Hall because he said something stupid.

    What *some* Utah fans can’t understand is that Max Hall speak for himself, not the University, but they (in a fashion not much different than Max Hall) believe that they are better because one of their own didn’t express any hate in the post-game show.

    Comment by just_a_lurker — November 30, 2009 @ 3:58 pm

  60. What is immoral about saying something stupid and how would Max Hall saying something stupid give them any moral high ground over you? None of that is making any sense to me.

    The ludicrous thing about this tempest in the teapot is that people are bent because Max Hall was honest about his feelings. Apparently honesty and frankness are considered great sins now.

    Comment by Geoff J — November 30, 2009 @ 4:14 pm

  61. Things I’ve learned from all BYU-Utah debates:

    1) Each school has terd fans and players

    2) Each schools fans will acknowledge that they have some terds but also insert “but” in there to water down there own terdiness

    3) Each school thinks the others terds stink more than theirs

    Comment by Riley — November 30, 2009 @ 4:43 pm

  62. Bronco Mendenhall’s first public comments on the incident can be found here.

    Comment by J. Michael — November 30, 2009 @ 6:28 pm

  63. And some insight into how Jamie Whittingham got caught up in a post-game scuffle can be found here.

    Comment by J. Michael — November 30, 2009 @ 6:31 pm

  64. “Apparently honesty and frankness are considered great sins now.”

    So he was just being honest, and as long as he’s honest, he should just say whatever he feels and we are all supposed to be ok with it? Any amount of hatred and stereotyping is perfectly ok by you as long as it’s honest? Is that really what you’re saying?

    Comment by MCQ — December 1, 2009 @ 12:27 am

  65. News flash Geoff: The sin is the hatred part, not the honesty part. The fact that I have to explain that is unbelievable. But at least you were being honest.

    Comment by MCQ — December 1, 2009 @ 12:30 am

  66. They may even appreciate that a gentile is being nasty to BYU so that they don’t have to sin themselves.

    You’ve discovered our secret, damn you Lurker! I have “gentiles” at the U do all my sinning for me. They commit all manner of crimes and misdemeanors on my behalf so that I can keep my hands clean. I have them drink, carouse, chase women and I’m working up to some really big stuff! It’s a great deal that we Mormon Utes get when we pay our tuition at the U: a lifetime of vicarious thrills. Just another reason why you BYU grads picked the wrong school.

    Comment by MCQ — December 1, 2009 @ 12:42 am

  67. MCQ, after showing some U of U alum your post at 9 moons and your comments here last night, this was their collective response: “This guy is making a bigger ass out of himself than Max Hall ever has.”

    Comment by Christopher — December 1, 2009 @ 6:41 am

  68. MCQ: The sin is the hatred part, not the honesty part.

    That is what I thought you would say. And since many (most?) players on each side “hate” their bitter rivals and their rivals’ program just like Max was honest enough to admit, there is no moral high ground for the students at the U to stand on. So just_a_lurker need not be concerned about that.

    Nobody cares if you like Max’s honest opinion, but I am not sure there is anything morally commendable about being two-faced about his honest feelings.

    And since we are being honest now, my honest opinion is that the biggest problem Mormon U fans have is that they are completely negligent in policing their own anti-Mormon leaning fans at games. Shall we call the Mormons at the the U the “pansy majority”?

    Comment by Geoff J — December 1, 2009 @ 8:27 am

  69. MCQ

    You don’t really get the point about the vicarious deal, do you.

    My point is that some guy is calling the BYU kids ##$$# @###$@@ @###$@ @##@ and then saying something about Joseph Smith and BY and TSM being @@#$@ @@#@$. You feel a little uncomfortable when the guy gets to the religious leaders part, but you still stand idly by because you really want to let them stick it to those BYU sheeple.

    If you don’t stick up for good sportsmanship (regardless of who you are) you are the same as the guy who hurled the taunts. Don’t give me your self-righteous, I’m better than you because of my school tirade. Are you sure you didn’t attend the Y?

    Comment by just_a_lurker — December 1, 2009 @ 9:02 am

  70. Geoff,

    Blake’s second volume has literally changed the way I view what “sin” is and how I can avoid it. It really makes sense to me that anything that alienates, isolates, damns, or damages loving relationships, either with God or our fellow “brothers and sisters” here on earth is by the very definition sin. When I first heard Max say it I knew it was hyperbole. At least I hoped so. I think had he had time to be more intelligent in expressing just who exactly it is he was mad at he wouldn’t have had to make an apology. Man I cant count how many times that’s happened to me.

    But again, look at my #61 post and that pretty much sums up what we’ve seen and can expect to see.

    Comment by Riley — December 1, 2009 @ 9:41 am

  71. Good point Riley. There is certainly wisdom in saying nothing at all in many cases.

    PS – I think the word you were looking for in #61 is “turd”.

    Comment by Geoff J — December 1, 2009 @ 9:53 am

  72. Christopher, it’s nice to see that you’ve finally resorted to just name calling. That’s probably your best argument.

    Comment by MCQ — December 1, 2009 @ 9:56 am

  73. MCQ, I didn’t call you that name. Your fellow Utes did. You’re embarrassing yourself. Just let it go.

    Comment by Christopher — December 1, 2009 @ 10:00 am

  74. Thanks Geoff J. It was my first time I’ve ever used a clean word like that, what with being a Ute fan and all… ;)

    Comment by Riley — December 1, 2009 @ 12:50 pm

  75. lol!

    Comment by Geoff J — December 1, 2009 @ 12:51 pm

  76. Christopher, lol, if you say so.

    All I’ve been saying is that hate and comments like Max’s have no place in what should be a good-natured rivalry. I’m not sure why that’s so threatening to you.

    Comment by MCQ — December 1, 2009 @ 2:06 pm

  77. MCQ, you’re far from threatening to me. And your claim that that is “all [you’ve] been saying” is bogus and you know it. You equated Hall’s comments with racism (your subsequent qualifiers notwithstanding), revised your initial post at 9 Moons in a silly effort to demonstrate how BYU fans are violent, inconsiderate people, and snarkily dismissed every comment in response to your own.

    Comment by Christopher — December 1, 2009 @ 8:48 pm

  78. Yeah, showing photos of people is completely silly. There’s no way that they depict actual people and events. Silly of me.

    Comment by MCQ — December 1, 2009 @ 9:36 pm

  79. You’ve now misrepresented my words as badly as you did Max Hall’s in labeling them the equivalent of racism. Nice work.

    Comment by Christopher — December 1, 2009 @ 9:56 pm

  80. No misrepresentation, Christopher. That would be Max’s department. Here’s your boy giving the same tired speech last year, only about another school:

    Are you getting the true picture of what this guy is all about yet?

    BTW, anyone know if you can buy beer in Rice-Eccles stadium? Hmmmm…

    Comment by MCQ — December 2, 2009 @ 7:23 am

  81. A pox on both their houses.

    Comment by John — December 2, 2009 @ 7:29 am

  82. MCQ: Are you getting the true picture of what this guy is all about yet?

    Yes. He is clearly a competitive person. But I am totally unclear about what is wrong with him being a competitive football player. In fact that is just how I prefer my football players to be — fiery and competitive.

    It is also unclear to me what the argument between you and Christopher is really about other than he and his friends didn’t like your post over at 9moons.

    BTW, anyone know if you can buy beer in Rice-Eccles stadium? Hmmmm…

    Are you saying U fans are too stupid to figure out how to sneak beers into a stadium? That is just rude. I think they are smarter than that.

    Seems to me that the UofU manages to attract some of the whiniest fans on the planet. They whine their hearts out whenever BYU wins. When Austin Collie thanks God for a victory (as is common for players to do in every sport), hoardes of U fans violently wail and lament about the self-righteousness of BYU players. When Max Hall expresses open disdain for the UofU after a victory (not giving God credit at all), U fans practically have conniptions about that too and try to crow about their own moral superiority. I’m starting to think the U fight song should go a little something like this:


    Comment by Geoff J — December 2, 2009 @ 8:41 am

  83. Without question people sneak beer into games all the time. But I will be honest, from my experience, they usually are turned in rather quickly. Hence they get plastered before hand to see them through the separation. But if people Google carefully, these beer assaults have plagued the Hall family since Arizona. Which in all seriousness is shameful of any fan involved in the game.

    Geoff J,

    You’re right. We Utah fans provoke and prolong everything that happens in this rivalry. We’ve selfishly caused Max and others to form a negative opinion of us and even have the audacity to think we can respond in kind. We understand that all we’ve done is cornered your fans and players, thereby goading a response that is atypical of your natures. As consolation for our succubae like oppression, please accept our indirect support for your players football program and education with our subsidized tithing.

    **Again, please look at post# 61 (particularly observation #2).

    Comment by Riley — December 2, 2009 @ 11:04 am

  84. Reading the above, I have to wonder if BYU wouldn’t be better off without a football team.

    Comment by Ray — December 2, 2009 @ 3:41 pm

  85. Sorry Ray — “men are that they might have joy” and that is why God commands BYU to field a football team. FACT.

    Comment by Geoff J — December 2, 2009 @ 3:46 pm

  86. lol! nice Geoff

    Actually, I have a testimony that God comprehended this rivalry and forwarned against the dangers both sides face. Take 2 Nephi 28:20-21:

    20 For behold, at that day shall he rage in the hearts of the children of men, and stir them up to anger against that which is good. Utes

    21 And others will he pacify, and lull them away into carnal security, that they will say: All is well in Zion; yea, Zion prospereth, all is well—and thus the devil cheateth their souls, and leadeth them away carefully down to hell. BYU

    Comment by Riley — December 2, 2009 @ 4:51 pm

  87. Umm, guys? A year or so ago, Hall smarmily hinted to the New York Times that his football playing was a valid and legitimate continuation of his missionary service (which ended at the seven-month mark for reasons Hall declined to give).

    If Hall considers himself a missionary, I don’t see any problem in holding him to missionary standards of civility and decency.

    Comment by JimD — December 3, 2009 @ 12:54 pm

  88. Please provide a link to this alleged smarmy hint JimD.

    Comment by Geoff J — December 3, 2009 @ 12:59 pm

  89. I hate to continue this, but you asked for it Geoff:

    Comment by MCQ — December 3, 2009 @ 6:46 pm

  90. Here is the quote:

    “A big reason why I came to B.Y.U. is that by coming to B.Y.U., especially if I was able to become a starting quarterback at B.Y.U., is the number of opportunities that I’d not only have to give service, but to represent my faith,” Hall said. “In a sense, continue to do missionary work without being on a mission.”

    I don’t see anything “smarmy” there. All I see is JimD revealing his own anti-BYU or at least anti Max Hall bias.

    Further, nobody gives a rat’s a… err, a rip about what standard JimD personally holds Max Hall to.

    Comment by Geoff J — December 3, 2009 @ 6:54 pm

  91. Because your feelings on the matter are the final word, eh Geoff?

    Comment by MCQ — December 3, 2009 @ 7:29 pm

  92. ??

    You lost me with that cryptic comment MCQ.

    Comment by Geoff J — December 3, 2009 @ 7:36 pm

  93. Well, Jim says he thinks Max is being smarmy when he says he went to BYU to play football because it was a way to “do missionary work without being on a mission.” He says if Hall is going to say he’s doing missionary work while playing football, that means we can expect him to represent his Church, as all missionaries are expected to do, and not say things like he said on Saturday, at minimum. That’s not exactly rocket science. It makes sense.

    Then you say:

    I don’t see anything “smarmy” there. All I see is JimD revealing his own anti-BYU or at least anti Max Hall bias.

    Further, nobody gives a rat’s a… err, a rip about what standard JimD personally holds Max Hall to.

    As if your feelings on the matter settle everything.

    When, in reality, Jim is making a perfectly good common sense pooint: If Hall is going to style himself as a missionary for our Church, we ought to be able to expect that he maintains a higher standard of behavior than the normal jock itchers on the team.

    Comment by MCQ — December 3, 2009 @ 10:02 pm

  94. Well of course I can speak my authoritatively about my opinion on the matter. The issue of my opinion right now is indeed settled. JimD can tell his opinion too.

    Every player at BYU and every single Mormon is a missionary in the sense Hall used it whether we admit it (or as you say or “style ourselves” as such) or not. Big deal.

    The unspoken assumption JimD is making is that Hall’s comments somehow will hurt missionary work for the church. I highly doubt Hall’s comments will have a net negative effect on missionary work at all. But of course we have no way of verifying that.

    Last, I flatly reject JimD’s assertion that Hall’s comments in that article were remotely “smarmy”. Making such a claim reveals JimD’s bias more than anything else.

    Comment by Geoff J — December 3, 2009 @ 11:31 pm

  95. Making such a claim reveals JimD’s bias more than anything else.

    And you have unquestionably revealed yours.

    Comment by MCQ — December 3, 2009 @ 11:40 pm

  96. True dat MCQ, true dat.

    (As if there were any question about my bias regarding BYU sports before this post.)

    Comment by Geoff J — December 3, 2009 @ 11:50 pm

  97. Although my brother Riley is understanding of Max Hall, I think he is a hypocrite and his “jerkiness” is only matched by his cowardice.


    Comment by Seaver — December 6, 2009 @ 4:51 pm

  98. Bwaha!!


    Comment by Geoff J — December 6, 2009 @ 4:59 pm

  99. Also, here is what Braden Brown posted for Max Hall on his facebook page:

    Dear fans of the University of Utah,

    I know there has been a lot of bad blood between us, but I really want to set the record straight and apologize. I know that I sent out an official apology on Sunday, but I didn’t really get the opportunity to truly express my concern for each of you. I honestly had no idea that you were so sensitive. If I would have known that you were going to be so hurt by what I said, I would have eased off.

    I thought, after so many years of hateful speech generated from your fans, that you would be able to handle a little bit in return. I mean you are a bunch of tough people, right? The “outcasts” of the state of Utah? The “hardcore” kids that scoff at the hypocritical “righteous living” of BYU fans? I mean, you guys are so hardcore that you don’t even drink your beer. Once again, I had no idea you were all a bunch of softies…. See More

    I also had no idea how much you valued my opinion. I would have assumed that you couldn’t care less about what I say. I mean, usually when someone from your school says something, the BYU fans don’t really care. Like back in 2004 when Morgan Scalley said he had hated the “pricks” from BYU. Or how about when Alex Smith said he hated BYU and that we were the most arrogant people. Paul Kruger and Stevenson Sylvester have made similar remarks, yet I’ve never seen a “Morgan Scalley thinks I’m a prick” t-shirt in Provo. Usually when people can dish it out, they can also take it. I’m sorry I made such a rash assumption.

    I am very glad that you took the time to remind me about my imperfections though. I thought no one would see me swearing or trash-talking on the sideline. I must have forgotten about the commitment to the “I will be perfect in every way” Honor Code I signed when I arrived at BYU. Silly me. I promise I will be perfect in the future, because if I’m not then everyone at BYU will also see my imperfections and judge me harshly, because everyone at BYU is perfect.

    After seeing how you took my comments, I will think twice about saying anything remotely unkind about your university or fans. I will also inform future quarterback Riley Nelson that he should only use love and kindness when speaking of Utah in the coming years. After I was so mean and abrasive this year, I would hate to see what would happen next year if Riley said anything. Most assuredly there would be another Facebook group formed, and heaven knows that means so much.

    Once again, Ute fans, I am so sorry about what I said and that I offended you so greatly. Please find it in your hearts to forgive me.


    Max Hall

    P.S. I was wondering who actually won the game last Saturday? With all this talk about me and my hateful comments, I have completely forgotten who actually won the game. It sure would be swell if we won. If we did in fact win, that would mean I now have a 2-1 record against you. Does that make me your daddy? I guess I didn’t really perform all that well numbers-wise against you, but the last I checked no one cares that Ben Roethlisberger got statistically outperformed by Kurt Warner in last year’s Super Bowl. Then again, what do I know?

    Comment by Seaver — December 6, 2009 @ 7:05 pm

  100. Hehe. Max is quickly becoming my favorite BYU QB of all time.

    Comment by Geoff J — December 6, 2009 @ 7:17 pm

  101. Been gone for a while, but to respond:

    Yes, I have an anti-Max-Hall bias. The bias formed when I read the NYT article last year (thanks for providing the link, MCQ).

    The unspoken assumption JimD is making is that Hall’s comments somehow will hurt missionary work for the church. I highly doubt Hall’s comments will have a net negative effect on missionary work at all.

    Wait–are you saying that it doesn’t hurt missionary work if LDS missionaries (self-appointed or otherwise) drop f-bombs on national television?

    Comment by JimD — December 7, 2009 @ 11:04 am

  102. Wait–are you saying that it doesn’t hurt missionary work if LDS missionaries (self-appointed or otherwise) drop f-bombs on national television?

    Yup, that’s what I’m saying.

    Comment by Geoff J — December 7, 2009 @ 11:05 am

  103. Uh . . . OK, then . . .

    Comment by JimD — December 8, 2009 @ 10:35 am

  104. If you have an argument to the contrary I am willing to hear it JimD.

    Comment by Geoff J — December 8, 2009 @ 10:44 am

  105. I should have though it was self-evident. Use of foul language by an emissary of a religion that is known for–and teaches–avoidance of such language, suggests a certain amount of hypocrisy on the part of the emissary. That’s going to reflect back onto the entity the entity purports to represent (To clarify: I’m talking about what is, not what should be.)

    By the way, I (quietly) root for BYU in their annual Utah game, and I’m glad they won. I just don’t happen to have a soft spot in my heart for their quarterback. (Maybe I’m just jaded, but I’ve seen this “there are better things I can do for God than honorably serve/complete a mission” line way too often.)

    Comment by JimD — December 8, 2009 @ 1:07 pm

  106. JimD: suggests a certain amount of hypocrisy on the part of the emissary

    I disagree. I think small slips like that only reveals that Mormons aren’t perfect and that Mormons are not passionless “Mormbots” as our critics claim. Non-Mormons are also not robots and also not perfect so I don’t believe a blue word caught on camera in the middle of a football game would cause any investigator to say “Wait! Let’s call off the baptism! I just learned that some Mormon guy somewhere in the world said a naughty word.” I think it more likely that the investigator might think “Pheww. I’m glad they aren’t so uptight in this church as to kick people out when mistakes like that happen. Maybe I really can make it as a Mormon.”

    Comment by Geoff J — December 8, 2009 @ 1:27 pm

  107. Gimmick infringement!

    Don’t try and steal our (Ute Mormons) methods Geoff.

    We Mormon-Utes have been using that tactic for years now. We swear, drink, and frequent strip clubs so that others will know that they too can be passionate, non-mormbot Mormons like us.

    Comment by Riley — December 8, 2009 @ 2:08 pm

  108. Hehe. Notice the qualifier “small slips” Riley. Nobody accused Max of being actually evil (like all y’all Utes ;-) )

    Comment by Geoff J — December 8, 2009 @ 2:12 pm

  109. Actually, Geoff, the best explanation of Max’s bizarre behavior is envy. He wishes he could have been a Ute. He longs to wear vibrant red, rather than icky blue. He wants to swear without being called to repentance. He longs for better-looking cheerleaders and a real city surrounding his college campus. He yearns for the fun, exciting college life that he always dreamed of, rather than the dull drab repressed one that he got. But he can’t say that. He can only lash out and claim to hate Utah. But we all know the truth. Poor Max. I feel very sorry for him.

    Comment by MCQ — December 8, 2009 @ 5:58 pm

  110. I know I envy the Utes for their 2008 season.

    Comment by Geoff J — December 8, 2009 @ 6:10 pm

  111. I don’t think Max Hall’s behavior hurts missionary work all that much (if at all), but I agree that if he were more of a class act, he might help it in a way that he doesn’t now. He certainly doesn’t look like a candidate for a good citizenship award at this point.

    Comment by Mark D. — December 9, 2009 @ 5:22 am