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	<title>Comments on: Bar Exam (Updated and Revised)</title>
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	<link>http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2010/03/bar-exam/1966/</link>
	<description>Mormon Musings by yer ol' pals</description>
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		<title>By: Arthur H.</title>
		<link>http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2010/03/bar-exam/1966/comment-page-1/#comment-410441</link>
		<dc:creator>Arthur H.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Mar 2010 15:54:03 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I guess the Lord delights in small, well-planned families... unless He wants us to raise seed up unto Him.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I guess the Lord delights in small, well-planned families&#8230; unless He wants us to raise seed up unto Him.</p>
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		<title>By: Raymond Takashi Swenson</title>
		<link>http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2010/03/bar-exam/1966/comment-page-1/#comment-410324</link>
		<dc:creator>Raymond Takashi Swenson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Mar 2010 03:41:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.newcoolthang.com/?p=1966#comment-410324</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the analysis.  My recollection of a Pew survey of all religions in the US was that, even though the number of children per family may be declining among Mormons, we far and away have the largest families among Christians, including being substantially ahead of the Catholics. The only ones giving us competition in the birth rate are Muslims.  And that is in spite of the delay of two years in getting started on families due to missions.  Apparently we still get married younger than most other religions.  That means that the rate of growth as a matter of years between generations is faster too.  I have two colleagues at work who just turned 60 along with me.  One has no kids, and the other has two sons who are  not yet married.  Our three adult kids have 12 grandchildren between them.  

The physical and financial limits on having children are much more severe in other developed nations.  In Japan, some apartments are basically just two rooms that get converted into bedrooms in the evening.  Having a car is expensive because of the cost of parking.  Despite these limitations, the Japanese LDS members are having more kids than the average 1 or 2 of most modern Japanese families.  The social barriers to growing up Mormon are also intense.  I imagine this is also true for developed Europe.  

My daughter has recounted to me that in some of her wards in Colorado Springs, when she had 4 kids, there was a lot of social pressure from working moms on other moms to limit the size of families.  I think the working moms felt constrained in how many kids they themselves could raise, and, exhibiting the normal human tendency toward self-justification, used the prevailing cultural language of criticizing large families against their LDS sisters.  The counsel about not criticizing other members for their decisions on family size need to be extended the other way as well.  

Perhaps having larger families, along with paying tithes and other church offerings, and giving volunteer time to the Church instead of making more money with a second job, or having Mom get a job, places Mormons in an effective lower socio-economic tier, where we don&#039;t have as much disposable income to get involved in activities that distract us from the basic activities of family and church.  If you don&#039;t have a lot of funds for jetting off to Cozumel or someplace like that for vacation every year, you will show up at church more often.   Having more kids makes us prioritize.  In my personal experience, the tendency to go inactive was more pronounced in higher income areas like Marin County, California, where the number of members and congregations has been shrinking for 20 years, than in communities with lower average income levels.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the analysis.  My recollection of a Pew survey of all religions in the US was that, even though the number of children per family may be declining among Mormons, we far and away have the largest families among Christians, including being substantially ahead of the Catholics. The only ones giving us competition in the birth rate are Muslims.  And that is in spite of the delay of two years in getting started on families due to missions.  Apparently we still get married younger than most other religions.  That means that the rate of growth as a matter of years between generations is faster too.  I have two colleagues at work who just turned 60 along with me.  One has no kids, and the other has two sons who are  not yet married.  Our three adult kids have 12 grandchildren between them.  </p>
<p>The physical and financial limits on having children are much more severe in other developed nations.  In Japan, some apartments are basically just two rooms that get converted into bedrooms in the evening.  Having a car is expensive because of the cost of parking.  Despite these limitations, the Japanese LDS members are having more kids than the average 1 or 2 of most modern Japanese families.  The social barriers to growing up Mormon are also intense.  I imagine this is also true for developed Europe.  </p>
<p>My daughter has recounted to me that in some of her wards in Colorado Springs, when she had 4 kids, there was a lot of social pressure from working moms on other moms to limit the size of families.  I think the working moms felt constrained in how many kids they themselves could raise, and, exhibiting the normal human tendency toward self-justification, used the prevailing cultural language of criticizing large families against their LDS sisters.  The counsel about not criticizing other members for their decisions on family size need to be extended the other way as well.  </p>
<p>Perhaps having larger families, along with paying tithes and other church offerings, and giving volunteer time to the Church instead of making more money with a second job, or having Mom get a job, places Mormons in an effective lower socio-economic tier, where we don&#8217;t have as much disposable income to get involved in activities that distract us from the basic activities of family and church.  If you don&#8217;t have a lot of funds for jetting off to Cozumel or someplace like that for vacation every year, you will show up at church more often.   Having more kids makes us prioritize.  In my personal experience, the tendency to go inactive was more pronounced in higher income areas like Marin County, California, where the number of members and congregations has been shrinking for 20 years, than in communities with lower average income levels.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike S</title>
		<link>http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2010/03/bar-exam/1966/comment-page-1/#comment-410319</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike S</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Mar 2010 22:10:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.newcoolthang.com/?p=1966#comment-410319</guid>
		<description>#30: manaen

I, too, have calculated the &quot;exits&quot; the same way.  While there are occasionally &quot;negative&quot; numbers, I think that is more due to reconciliation than anything else.  I think the reason it hasn&#039;t happened as much recently is that most units are electronically-based as opposed to paper-based, with nothing much more &quot;snarky&quot; than that.

The more interesting thing about the &quot;exit&quot; numbers to me is the rate per 1000.  I have the numbers on a different computer but it would be interesting to plot the &quot;exits&quot; per 1000 against the &quot;converts&quot; per 1000 to see trends.  The &quot;converts&quot; per 1000 is down 40% over the past 15 years from the above data to around 20/1000.  If my memory is correct, the &quot;exits&quot; are around 8/1000.  If the 2 lines were to ever meet, it would mean that the net growth would be neutral except for children born.

This is actually the case in several areas.  In a country like Norway, there are around as many members there today as there were 20-25 years ago.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#30: manaen</p>
<p>I, too, have calculated the &#8220;exits&#8221; the same way.  While there are occasionally &#8220;negative&#8221; numbers, I think that is more due to reconciliation than anything else.  I think the reason it hasn&#8217;t happened as much recently is that most units are electronically-based as opposed to paper-based, with nothing much more &#8220;snarky&#8221; than that.</p>
<p>The more interesting thing about the &#8220;exit&#8221; numbers to me is the rate per 1000.  I have the numbers on a different computer but it would be interesting to plot the &#8220;exits&#8221; per 1000 against the &#8220;converts&#8221; per 1000 to see trends.  The &#8220;converts&#8221; per 1000 is down 40% over the past 15 years from the above data to around 20/1000.  If my memory is correct, the &#8220;exits&#8221; are around 8/1000.  If the 2 lines were to ever meet, it would mean that the net growth would be neutral except for children born.</p>
<p>This is actually the case in several areas.  In a country like Norway, there are around as many members there today as there were 20-25 years ago.</p>
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		<title>By: manaen</title>
		<link>http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2010/03/bar-exam/1966/comment-page-1/#comment-410317</link>
		<dc:creator>manaen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Mar 2010 21:12:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.newcoolthang.com/?p=1966#comment-410317</guid>
		<description>I like this posting.  I&#039;ve been tracking these statistics since 1970 through the statistical reports in General Conferences.
.
I especially like the correlation between available 19-year-olds and missionaries in service.  A question, though: the Church reported 7.8 million members at the close of 1990.  We&#039;ve nearly doubled since then and presumably so would the number of 19-yr-old members.  How, beyond seminary enrollments, do you include these converts-to-missionaries?
.
RE: &lt;em&gt;&quot;we also saw a Drop in 82 and 94. Were there “Bar Raisings” in those years?&quot;&lt;/em&gt;, 1982 was when the Church experimented for a short while with 18-month missions for our young elders. (My brother served then and I still kid him about not serving a &quot;real&quot; mission).  The announced hope at the time was that it would enable more to serve and so increase our feet on the streets.  It didn&#039;t and we reverted to 24-month missions shortly afterwards.  BTW, elders served 30-month missions until a few years before I began mine in 1971.
.
Another subject for research: I also track the number of member &quot;exits&quot; (deaths, apostacies,and excommunications by
- calculating the increase in church membership for a year
- subtracting the convert baptisms and increases in Children of Record during that year.
Sometimes this left a negative decrease, implying an increase in membership greater than the addition of converts and children of record.  (This hasn&#039;t occured in the most recent years).
.
Some possible explanations I have for this are:
- member records&#039; totals are counted separately from the various incomings and outgoings and they&#039;re not reconciled, 
- newly-moved members somehow are reported from new and old units, and 
- we&#039;re getting reports from the spirit world.
.
Does anyone have other explanations, besides the snarky ones from our detractors?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I like this posting.  I&#8217;ve been tracking these statistics since 1970 through the statistical reports in General Conferences.<br />
.<br />
I especially like the correlation between available 19-year-olds and missionaries in service.  A question, though: the Church reported 7.8 million members at the close of 1990.  We&#8217;ve nearly doubled since then and presumably so would the number of 19-yr-old members.  How, beyond seminary enrollments, do you include these converts-to-missionaries?<br />
.<br />
RE: <em>&#8220;we also saw a Drop in 82 and 94. Were there “Bar Raisings” in those years?&#8221;</em>, 1982 was when the Church experimented for a short while with 18-month missions for our young elders. (My brother served then and I still kid him about not serving a &#8220;real&#8221; mission).  The announced hope at the time was that it would enable more to serve and so increase our feet on the streets.  It didn&#8217;t and we reverted to 24-month missions shortly afterwards.  BTW, elders served 30-month missions until a few years before I began mine in 1971.<br />
.<br />
Another subject for research: I also track the number of member &#8220;exits&#8221; (deaths, apostacies,and excommunications by<br />
- calculating the increase in church membership for a year<br />
- subtracting the convert baptisms and increases in Children of Record during that year.<br />
Sometimes this left a negative decrease, implying an increase in membership greater than the addition of converts and children of record.  (This hasn&#8217;t occured in the most recent years).<br />
.<br />
Some possible explanations I have for this are:<br />
- member records&#8217; totals are counted separately from the various incomings and outgoings and they&#8217;re not reconciled,<br />
- newly-moved members somehow are reported from new and old units, and<br />
- we&#8217;re getting reports from the spirit world.<br />
.<br />
Does anyone have other explanations, besides the snarky ones from our detractors?</p>
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		<title>By: Mike S</title>
		<link>http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2010/03/bar-exam/1966/comment-page-1/#comment-410315</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike S</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Mar 2010 20:53:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.newcoolthang.com/?p=1966#comment-410315</guid>
		<description>Thank you for putting all this data together - it is really interesting.

Of all of the charts, the one that has the most long-term implications for me is the Converts Per 1000 Members.  In a very short time (15 years: 1993-2008), it dropped over 40%, from 35 to 20.  I don&#039;t know if this is an aberration or a trend, but it does suggest that Church growth is certainly flattening out.  

Concerningly, there is a certain percentage of people who leave the Church each year or die.  I don&#039;t have exact numbers for these, but interpolating as best as I can, it seems to be on the order of 6-10/1000 per year. If the converts/1000 members drops another 40% over the next 15 years (ie. from 20-&gt;12), it is going to be closing in on the number of people who leave the Church.  If those 2 numbers ever match, then we will only have growth through children born in the Church.

Any thoughts on why this is happening or if it&#039;s going to flatten out?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you for putting all this data together &#8211; it is really interesting.</p>
<p>Of all of the charts, the one that has the most long-term implications for me is the Converts Per 1000 Members.  In a very short time (15 years: 1993-2008), it dropped over 40%, from 35 to 20.  I don&#8217;t know if this is an aberration or a trend, but it does suggest that Church growth is certainly flattening out.  </p>
<p>Concerningly, there is a certain percentage of people who leave the Church each year or die.  I don&#8217;t have exact numbers for these, but interpolating as best as I can, it seems to be on the order of 6-10/1000 per year. If the converts/1000 members drops another 40% over the next 15 years (ie. from 20-&gt;12), it is going to be closing in on the number of people who leave the Church.  If those 2 numbers ever match, then we will only have growth through children born in the Church.</p>
<p>Any thoughts on why this is happening or if it&#8217;s going to flatten out?</p>
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		<title>By: Matt W.</title>
		<link>http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2010/03/bar-exam/1966/comment-page-1/#comment-410314</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt W.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Mar 2010 18:51:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.newcoolthang.com/?p=1966#comment-410314</guid>
		<description>JNS- well, it did have an impact, at least when we look at the Seminary data (not so much at the COR data). I just think it&#039;s impact was much less important that the decline in birth rate to the current numbers we have. Of course, I think the birthrate decline isn&#039;t that bad of a thing.

I do think the church needs to step up it&#039;s marketing for the value of going on a mission.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>JNS- well, it did have an impact, at least when we look at the Seminary data (not so much at the COR data). I just think it&#8217;s impact was much less important that the decline in birth rate to the current numbers we have. Of course, I think the birthrate decline isn&#8217;t that bad of a thing.</p>
<p>I do think the church needs to step up it&#8217;s marketing for the value of going on a mission.</p>
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		<title>By: J. Nelson-Seawright</title>
		<link>http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2010/03/bar-exam/1966/comment-page-1/#comment-410308</link>
		<dc:creator>J. Nelson-Seawright</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Mar 2010 17:13:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.newcoolthang.com/?p=1966#comment-410308</guid>
		<description>I made this point at an old LDSLF post back in the days when that site existed --- i.e., before the hosting company dumped it.  Good analysis; this seems right to me.  The bar-raise was more symbolic than anything.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I made this point at an old LDSLF post back in the days when that site existed &#8212; i.e., before the hosting company dumped it.  Good analysis; this seems right to me.  The bar-raise was more symbolic than anything.</p>
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		<title>By: Sterling Fluharty</title>
		<link>http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2010/03/bar-exam/1966/comment-page-1/#comment-410136</link>
		<dc:creator>Sterling Fluharty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Mar 2010 21:06:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.newcoolthang.com/?p=1966#comment-410136</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the interesting analysis.  How could we track change over time in the gender composition of the missionary force?  I think it would be important to assess the impact of Pres. Hinckley, as well as the rising age at first marriage in Utah, on the number of LDS young women choosing to serve missions.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the interesting analysis.  How could we track change over time in the gender composition of the missionary force?  I think it would be important to assess the impact of Pres. Hinckley, as well as the rising age at first marriage in Utah, on the number of LDS young women choosing to serve missions.</p>
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		<title>By: jks</title>
		<link>http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2010/03/bar-exam/1966/comment-page-1/#comment-410115</link>
		<dc:creator>jks</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Mar 2010 19:06:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.newcoolthang.com/?p=1966#comment-410115</guid>
		<description>Station wagons were regulated out of existence because they were cars with bad gas mileage.  That left us with only minivans and SUVs to choose from which were in a truck category.  Not a cheaper or even a more environmentally friendly option.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Station wagons were regulated out of existence because they were cars with bad gas mileage.  That left us with only minivans and SUVs to choose from which were in a truck category.  Not a cheaper or even a more environmentally friendly option.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt W.</title>
		<link>http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2010/03/bar-exam/1966/comment-page-1/#comment-409973</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt W.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Mar 2010 04:43:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.newcoolthang.com/?p=1966#comment-409973</guid>
		<description>Thanks Ziff- That means a lot coming from the official &#039;naccle data analyst.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Ziff- That means a lot coming from the official &#8216;naccle data analyst.</p>
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