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	<title>Comments on: Dennett &#8211; Freedom Evolves (lecture)</title>
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	<link>http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2010/02/dennett-freedom-evolves-lecture/1947/</link>
	<description>Mormon Musings by yer ol' pals</description>
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		<title>By: Christine</title>
		<link>http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2010/02/dennett-freedom-evolves-lecture/1947/comment-page-1/#comment-408577</link>
		<dc:creator>Christine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 Feb 2010 17:12:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.newcoolthang.com/?p=1947#comment-408577</guid>
		<description>Mark: I don&#039;t believe that your assertion that CFW is de rigueur is near accurate. Almost all were not reflective of their view of free will. Of those who were, at least the most notable have consciously adopted LFW like Aquinas, Luis De Molina, Suarez, Ockham, Leibniz and a number of very notable others.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mark: I don&#8217;t believe that your assertion that CFW is de rigueur is near accurate. Almost all were not reflective of their view of free will. Of those who were, at least the most notable have consciously adopted LFW like Aquinas, Luis De Molina, Suarez, Ockham, Leibniz and a number of very notable others.</p>
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		<title>By: Arthur H.</title>
		<link>http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2010/02/dennett-freedom-evolves-lecture/1947/comment-page-1/#comment-408526</link>
		<dc:creator>Arthur H.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 Feb 2010 00:12:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.newcoolthang.com/?p=1947#comment-408526</guid>
		<description>This is by far one of the funniest things I&#039;ve seen in the Bloggernacle.  This was ridiculously funny.  I&#039;m so glad I stumbled upon this blog just now.  Thank you.  I literally guffawed.

A+</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is by far one of the funniest things I&#8217;ve seen in the Bloggernacle.  This was ridiculously funny.  I&#8217;m so glad I stumbled upon this blog just now.  Thank you.  I literally guffawed.</p>
<p>A+</p>
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		<title>By: Mark D.</title>
		<link>http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2010/02/dennett-freedom-evolves-lecture/1947/comment-page-1/#comment-407753</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark D.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Feb 2010 07:09:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.newcoolthang.com/?p=1947#comment-407753</guid>
		<description>Jacob J, Certainly. CFW is &lt;em&gt;de rigueur&lt;/em&gt; among (most of) the &lt;em&gt;creatio ex nihilo&lt;/em&gt; crowd and has been for about 2400 years.  

And of course the step from creating the universe out of nothing to managing the laws of physics out of your home office is not that big of one.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jacob J, Certainly. CFW is <em>de rigueur</em> among (most of) the <em>creatio ex nihilo</em> crowd and has been for about 2400 years.  </p>
<p>And of course the step from creating the universe out of nothing to managing the laws of physics out of your home office is not that big of one.</p>
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		<title>By: BHodges</title>
		<link>http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2010/02/dennett-freedom-evolves-lecture/1947/comment-page-1/#comment-407710</link>
		<dc:creator>BHodges</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Feb 2010 00:34:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.newcoolthang.com/?p=1947#comment-407710</guid>
		<description>Well I just thoroughly enjoyed myself.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well I just thoroughly enjoyed myself.</p>
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		<title>By: Jacob J</title>
		<link>http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2010/02/dennett-freedom-evolves-lecture/1947/comment-page-1/#comment-407662</link>
		<dc:creator>Jacob J</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Feb 2010 16:45:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.newcoolthang.com/?p=1947#comment-407662</guid>
		<description>I said &lt;em&gt;advanced by&lt;/em&gt; for a reason. 

I agree with you that people sometimes get carried away with there conviction that evolution not only can, but must, explain everything that exists.  I posted not long ago on one &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2008/12/more-muddled-evolution-theory/652/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;example of that&lt;/a&gt; (not exactly what you have in mind, but relevant nonetheless).

I should mention that Jeff G has pointed out elsewhere that CFW does not require evolution and people like AdamG almost certainly argue for CFW in the context of creationism.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I said <em>advanced by</em> for a reason. </p>
<p>I agree with you that people sometimes get carried away with there conviction that evolution not only can, but must, explain everything that exists.  I posted not long ago on one <a href="http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2008/12/more-muddled-evolution-theory/652/" rel="nofollow">example of that</a> (not exactly what you have in mind, but relevant nonetheless).</p>
<p>I should mention that Jeff G has pointed out elsewhere that CFW does not require evolution and people like AdamG almost certainly argue for CFW in the context of creationism.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark D.</title>
		<link>http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2010/02/dennett-freedom-evolves-lecture/1947/comment-page-1/#comment-407597</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark D.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Feb 2010 10:36:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.newcoolthang.com/?p=1947#comment-407597</guid>
		<description>I said &lt;em&gt;largely&lt;/em&gt; for a reason. By the way it wasn&#039;t Ann Coulter who originated this argument but rather none other than &lt;em&gt;Karl Popper&lt;/em&gt;.

My complaint is not that evolution isn&#039;t an essential element in the explanation of any number of things, my complaint is that in the hands of biologists it so completely explains &lt;em&gt;everything&lt;/em&gt; that anyone who suggests otherwise (reality of LFW perhaps) is treated like some sort of sub rational, anti-scientific heretic.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I said <em>largely</em> for a reason. By the way it wasn&#8217;t Ann Coulter who originated this argument but rather none other than <em>Karl Popper</em>.</p>
<p>My complaint is not that evolution isn&#8217;t an essential element in the explanation of any number of things, my complaint is that in the hands of biologists it so completely explains <em>everything</em> that anyone who suggests otherwise (reality of LFW perhaps) is treated like some sort of sub rational, anti-scientific heretic.</p>
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		<title>By: Jacob J</title>
		<link>http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2010/02/dennett-freedom-evolves-lecture/1947/comment-page-1/#comment-407377</link>
		<dc:creator>Jacob J</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Feb 2010 04:07:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.newcoolthang.com/?p=1947#comment-407377</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;This is what I should do – start a web log and debate myself.&lt;/em&gt;

Haha.  Just remember, you saw it here first.

&lt;em&gt;The theory of natural selection is largely devoid of intellectual content.&lt;/em&gt;

In my mind it is foolhardy at best to take a concept that revolutionized a major branch of science and claim that it is tautological. Natural selection is a cornerstone of modern biology.  It is just not plausible that something with such a history and place in modern science could turn out to be devoid of content.  Luckily, your argument was advanced by Ann Coulter a couple of years back so there are lots of people who have already spilled a lot of ink responding to it (which means I don&#039;t need to do it here).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>This is what I should do – start a web log and debate myself.</em></p>
<p>Haha.  Just remember, you saw it here first.</p>
<p><em>The theory of natural selection is largely devoid of intellectual content.</em></p>
<p>In my mind it is foolhardy at best to take a concept that revolutionized a major branch of science and claim that it is tautological. Natural selection is a cornerstone of modern biology.  It is just not plausible that something with such a history and place in modern science could turn out to be devoid of content.  Luckily, your argument was advanced by Ann Coulter a couple of years back so there are lots of people who have already spilled a lot of ink responding to it (which means I don&#8217;t need to do it here).</p>
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		<title>By: Mark D.</title>
		<link>http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2010/02/dennett-freedom-evolves-lecture/1947/comment-page-1/#comment-407241</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark D.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Feb 2010 06:38:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.newcoolthang.com/?p=1947#comment-407241</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;the fact remains that self-replication is required for something to propagate its “fitness” in an evolutionary system&lt;/em&gt;

That is an arbitrary constraint - certainly such replication is a highly effective method of propagating a certain species, but it is certainly not the only one.

Even in a strictly biological context, &quot;survival of the fittest&quot; is tautological. It is like saying &quot;what survives, survives&quot;. &quot;Fit&quot; has no other meaning.

The theory of natural selection is largely devoid of intellectual content.  The main reason for that is that generally speaking it is not falsifiable.

No matter which species or properties of species survive, we always attribute survival to survivability. That doesn&#039;t tell us anything. It is like saying, &quot;Why did so and so get a higher score on the test?&quot; &quot;Because he was a better student.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>the fact remains that self-replication is required for something to propagate its “fitness” in an evolutionary system</em></p>
<p>That is an arbitrary constraint &#8211; certainly such replication is a highly effective method of propagating a certain species, but it is certainly not the only one.</p>
<p>Even in a strictly biological context, &#8220;survival of the fittest&#8221; is tautological. It is like saying &#8220;what survives, survives&#8221;. &#8220;Fit&#8221; has no other meaning.</p>
<p>The theory of natural selection is largely devoid of intellectual content.  The main reason for that is that generally speaking it is not falsifiable.</p>
<p>No matter which species or properties of species survive, we always attribute survival to survivability. That doesn&#8217;t tell us anything. It is like saying, &#8220;Why did so and so get a higher score on the test?&#8221; &#8220;Because he was a better student.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Mark D.</title>
		<link>http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2010/02/dennett-freedom-evolves-lecture/1947/comment-page-1/#comment-407234</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark D.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Feb 2010 05:47:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.newcoolthang.com/?p=1947#comment-407234</guid>
		<description>This is what I should do - start a web log and debate myself.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is what I should do &#8211; start a web log and debate myself.</p>
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		<title>By: LFW Jacob J</title>
		<link>http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2010/02/dennett-freedom-evolves-lecture/1947/comment-page-1/#comment-407233</link>
		<dc:creator>LFW Jacob J</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Feb 2010 05:43:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.newcoolthang.com/?p=1947#comment-407233</guid>
		<description>So here&#039;s the problem.  Self-modification does not actually lead to self-determination.  Lots of things affect themselves, but that doesn&#039;t make them willful agents.  If the sun collapses due to its own gravity, do we then say that it choose to become a white dwarf?  No.  Was it free to become a white dwarf or not to?  Of course not.  Making your thoughts part of the causal chain doesn&#039;t solve the problem, it creates the problem.  If they are part of the causal chain, that means that they are determined just like everything else.  Therefore, you have no control over them since they are entirely determined by the physical state of the universe in the moment before they obtained.  You are continuing to use a concept of &lt;em&gt;thinking&lt;/em&gt; that is derived from your experience of it, but which is incompatible with the your deterministic view of it.  

If your thoughts are determined, in what sense are they &quot;yours&quot;?  They can be yours in the same way that your skin is white, or your beard is patchy.  They are attached to whatever it is we are calling &quot;you,&quot; but you are not responsible in any way for them.  That is the catch.  If you never initiate them in any way, you should talk about your thoughts happening &lt;em&gt;to&lt;/em&gt; you.  When your white skin ends up in the causal chain, say, when you get a sunburn, it doesn&#039;t mean you are free.  The reason it seems like a break-through when you realize thoughts could be self-determining is that you are mentally jumping from that idea to the idea of self-&lt;em&gt;initiating&lt;/em&gt;.  Self-initiating is, of course, the key ingredient of freedom, and the actual property of our actual thoughts, which is the only reason you can make this jump without noticing.  &quot;Self-determination&quot; is used casually to mean &quot;self-controlling,&quot; but if the &quot;determination&quot; is consistent with the philosophical definition, then self-determination does not lead to freedom.  At least, if it does lead to freedom, then we should start talking about virtually everything as being free.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So here&#8217;s the problem.  Self-modification does not actually lead to self-determination.  Lots of things affect themselves, but that doesn&#8217;t make them willful agents.  If the sun collapses due to its own gravity, do we then say that it choose to become a white dwarf?  No.  Was it free to become a white dwarf or not to?  Of course not.  Making your thoughts part of the causal chain doesn&#8217;t solve the problem, it creates the problem.  If they are part of the causal chain, that means that they are determined just like everything else.  Therefore, you have no control over them since they are entirely determined by the physical state of the universe in the moment before they obtained.  You are continuing to use a concept of <em>thinking</em> that is derived from your experience of it, but which is incompatible with the your deterministic view of it.  </p>
<p>If your thoughts are determined, in what sense are they &#8220;yours&#8221;?  They can be yours in the same way that your skin is white, or your beard is patchy.  They are attached to whatever it is we are calling &#8220;you,&#8221; but you are not responsible in any way for them.  That is the catch.  If you never initiate them in any way, you should talk about your thoughts happening <em>to</em> you.  When your white skin ends up in the causal chain, say, when you get a sunburn, it doesn&#8217;t mean you are free.  The reason it seems like a break-through when you realize thoughts could be self-determining is that you are mentally jumping from that idea to the idea of self-<em>initiating</em>.  Self-initiating is, of course, the key ingredient of freedom, and the actual property of our actual thoughts, which is the only reason you can make this jump without noticing.  &#8220;Self-determination&#8221; is used casually to mean &#8220;self-controlling,&#8221; but if the &#8220;determination&#8221; is consistent with the philosophical definition, then self-determination does not lead to freedom.  At least, if it does lead to freedom, then we should start talking about virtually everything as being free.</p>
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