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	<title>Comments on: Chapter 6 &#8211; Principles and Ordinances</title>
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	<link>http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2009/06/chapter-6-principles-and-ordinances/1102/</link>
	<description>Mormon Musings by yer ol' pals</description>
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		<title>By: Kent (MC)</title>
		<link>http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2009/06/chapter-6-principles-and-ordinances/1102/comment-page-1/#comment-349645</link>
		<dc:creator>Kent (MC)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Jun 2009 21:25:02 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Thanks Toria!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Toria!</p>
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		<title>By: Toria</title>
		<link>http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2009/06/chapter-6-principles-and-ordinances/1102/comment-page-1/#comment-349556</link>
		<dc:creator>Toria</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Jun 2009 02:06:15 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Contrary to Manuel&#039;s comment, I really like the line about the Gift of the Holy Ghost explaning that &quot;He gives us the gift of the Holy Ghost as an assurance that our commitment is accepted by Him.&quot;

I think it conveys a very powerful message about why we have the Holy Ghost. It complements the Bible Dictionary entry on &quot;earnest&quot; which states: &quot;...the Lord gives us his Holy Spirit in this life as a foretaste of the joy of eternal life. The Spirit is also the Lord&#039;s surety that he will fulfill his promise to give eternal life to the faithful.&quot;

As for the part about the comforter, perhaps you could add something like:
His presence helps us to feel the love that God has for us and assures us that God&#039;s is constant. Feeling God&#039;s love and knowing that it is always with us bring us comfort. 

I think this would be consistent with your earlier note about how sin keeps us from loving others and feeling love and about how the Holy Ghost returns after repentance.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Contrary to Manuel&#8217;s comment, I really like the line about the Gift of the Holy Ghost explaning that &#8220;He gives us the gift of the Holy Ghost as an assurance that our commitment is accepted by Him.&#8221;</p>
<p>I think it conveys a very powerful message about why we have the Holy Ghost. It complements the Bible Dictionary entry on &#8220;earnest&#8221; which states: &#8220;&#8230;the Lord gives us his Holy Spirit in this life as a foretaste of the joy of eternal life. The Spirit is also the Lord&#8217;s surety that he will fulfill his promise to give eternal life to the faithful.&#8221;</p>
<p>As for the part about the comforter, perhaps you could add something like:<br />
His presence helps us to feel the love that God has for us and assures us that God&#8217;s is constant. Feeling God&#8217;s love and knowing that it is always with us bring us comfort. </p>
<p>I think this would be consistent with your earlier note about how sin keeps us from loving others and feeling love and about how the Holy Ghost returns after repentance.</p>
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		<title>By: Kent (MC)</title>
		<link>http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2009/06/chapter-6-principles-and-ordinances/1102/comment-page-1/#comment-349367</link>
		<dc:creator>Kent (MC)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Jun 2009 23:34:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.newcoolthang.com/?p=1102#comment-349367</guid>
		<description>Manuel,

I see the reception of the Holy Ghost as the means by which we receive additional glory, and I deem this the baptism of fire. I believe that even though the Gift of the Holy Ghost is promised to 8-year-old children, their Baptism of Fire may come much later in life. Like the temple, I think the ordinance foreshadows the future possibility. At your suggestion, I will make a reference to it at least. 

Matt,

You have perfectly encapsulated my own reservations in talking about the Holy Ghost in the Comforter role. I wanted to show the parity in the covenant relationship that the way we sign the dotted line (so to speak) is through baptism and the way that God ratifies that agreement is through bestowing the Spirit as a constant companion. Really, the issue is like you stated, many of us do not experience the &quot;constant&quot; companionship of the Holy Ghost that is promised in the sacramental prayer; and I don&#039;t attribute that lack of companionship strictly to selfish living. Maybe I can deal better with this tension in my Enduring to the End chapter by describing how we interact with the Spirit in practical terms. Let me know if you have any profound wisdom you are keeping to yourself. Don&#039;t leave me hangin&#039;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Manuel,</p>
<p>I see the reception of the Holy Ghost as the means by which we receive additional glory, and I deem this the baptism of fire. I believe that even though the Gift of the Holy Ghost is promised to 8-year-old children, their Baptism of Fire may come much later in life. Like the temple, I think the ordinance foreshadows the future possibility. At your suggestion, I will make a reference to it at least. </p>
<p>Matt,</p>
<p>You have perfectly encapsulated my own reservations in talking about the Holy Ghost in the Comforter role. I wanted to show the parity in the covenant relationship that the way we sign the dotted line (so to speak) is through baptism and the way that God ratifies that agreement is through bestowing the Spirit as a constant companion. Really, the issue is like you stated, many of us do not experience the &#8220;constant&#8221; companionship of the Holy Ghost that is promised in the sacramental prayer; and I don&#8217;t attribute that lack of companionship strictly to selfish living. Maybe I can deal better with this tension in my Enduring to the End chapter by describing how we interact with the Spirit in practical terms. Let me know if you have any profound wisdom you are keeping to yourself. Don&#8217;t leave me hangin&#8217;.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt W.</title>
		<link>http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2009/06/chapter-6-principles-and-ordinances/1102/comment-page-1/#comment-349274</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt W.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Jun 2009 14:30:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.newcoolthang.com/?p=1102#comment-349274</guid>
		<description>I need to think about the GoHG section, but I really loved your description of Baptism. 

For the GOHG, I guess my main question revolves around:
&lt;blockquote&gt; The gift of the Holy Ghost is our opportunity to know our standing before God at any time&lt;/blockquote&gt;


I guess this is true, but I don&#039;t know how to practically apply it or give an example of it. I can&#039;t say it is false, but I also couldn&#039;t teach my children how it is done. One of the things I do not want to teach is that the GOHG is the force or a batphone to God, as I don&#039;t want expectations t be out of sync with reality.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I need to think about the GoHG section, but I really loved your description of Baptism. </p>
<p>For the GOHG, I guess my main question revolves around:</p>
<blockquote><p> The gift of the Holy Ghost is our opportunity to know our standing before God at any time</p></blockquote>
<p>I guess this is true, but I don&#8217;t know how to practically apply it or give an example of it. I can&#8217;t say it is false, but I also couldn&#8217;t teach my children how it is done. One of the things I do not want to teach is that the GOHG is the force or a batphone to God, as I don&#8217;t want expectations t be out of sync with reality.</p>
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		<title>By: Manuel</title>
		<link>http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2009/06/chapter-6-principles-and-ordinances/1102/comment-page-1/#comment-349203</link>
		<dc:creator>Manuel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Jun 2009 08:58:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.newcoolthang.com/?p=1102#comment-349203</guid>
		<description>Just a comment on this line:

&quot;...He gives us the gift of the Holy Ghost as an assurance that our commitment is accepted by Him.&quot;

It&#039;s too simple and doesn&#039;t really convey what receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost entails.  You may want to explain a little better the significance of the event and that it is also a baptism or part of baptism itself.  You may want to add that this is what we call a â€œbaptism by fireâ€ and of the Holy Ghost, and that it is this part of baptism that effectuates a change in the hearts and &quot;purges&quot; (so to speak) the sins of the repentant individuals who receive it.  Also, this would be a good opportunity to explain the meaning of â€œbaptism by fireâ€ that some children (and some adults) donâ€™t fully understand.

â€œYou might as well baptize a bag of sand as a man, if not done in view of the remission of sins and getting of the Holy Ghost. Baptism by water is but half a baptism, and is good for nothing without the other halfâ€”that is, the baptism of the Holy Ghostâ€ (Joseph Smith, History of the Church, 5:499).

Leaders and scriptures teach of a baptism of â€œfire.â€

â€œWhen parents are teaching their children and when missionaries are teaching investigators, preparing them for baptism by water, they must also think of the gift of the Holy Ghostâ€”baptism by fire. Think of it as one sentence. First comes the baptism of water and then the baptism of fire.â€ (Boyd K. Packer, The Gift of the Holy Ghost: What Every Member Should Know, Ensign Aug 2006)

â€œThe use of the word fire suggests that those who receive this gift with the right heart can expect something more than mere acceptance of certain principles or even baptism by immersion. â€¦ The miracle of the manifestation of fire and the Holy Ghost has the capacity to reach within a personâ€™s heart. While that person may have been a bystander regarding the things of God, the power of the Spirit is able to turn such a person into a living witness of this sacred work.â€ (Elder Loren C. Dunn, Fire and the Holy Ghost, Ensign June 1995)

â€œI indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fireâ€ (John the Baptist in Matthew 3:11)

Some have suggested that it is the baptism of fire that actually makes the remission of sins possible:

â€œBeginning with 1 Nephi, we find these same principles referenced over and over again as a kind of tutorial formula, teaching that if people (1) believe in Christ, (2) repent of their sins, and (3) submit to baptism in water as a witness of their willingness to take Christâ€™s name upon themselves and keep his commandments, he will (4) pour out his Spirit upon them and cleanse them of their sins in a baptism of fire.â€ (Noel B. Raynolds, Ensign Sep 1992)

Some scriptures seem to point to this same thing, that the remission of sins happens due to the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost:

17 Wherefore, do the things which I have told you I have seen that your Lord and your Redeemer should do; for, for this cause have they been shown unto me, that ye might know the gate by which ye should enter. For the gate by which ye should enter is repentance and baptism by water; and then cometh a remission of your sins by fire and by the Holy Ghost. (2 Ne 31:17)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just a comment on this line:</p>
<p>&#8220;&#8230;He gives us the gift of the Holy Ghost as an assurance that our commitment is accepted by Him.&#8221;</p>
<p>It&#8217;s too simple and doesn&#8217;t really convey what receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost entails.  You may want to explain a little better the significance of the event and that it is also a baptism or part of baptism itself.  You may want to add that this is what we call a â€œbaptism by fireâ€ and of the Holy Ghost, and that it is this part of baptism that effectuates a change in the hearts and &#8220;purges&#8221; (so to speak) the sins of the repentant individuals who receive it.  Also, this would be a good opportunity to explain the meaning of â€œbaptism by fireâ€ that some children (and some adults) donâ€™t fully understand.</p>
<p>â€œYou might as well baptize a bag of sand as a man, if not done in view of the remission of sins and getting of the Holy Ghost. Baptism by water is but half a baptism, and is good for nothing without the other halfâ€”that is, the baptism of the Holy Ghostâ€ (Joseph Smith, History of the Church, 5:499).</p>
<p>Leaders and scriptures teach of a baptism of â€œfire.â€</p>
<p>â€œWhen parents are teaching their children and when missionaries are teaching investigators, preparing them for baptism by water, they must also think of the gift of the Holy Ghostâ€”baptism by fire. Think of it as one sentence. First comes the baptism of water and then the baptism of fire.â€ (Boyd K. Packer, The Gift of the Holy Ghost: What Every Member Should Know, Ensign Aug 2006)</p>
<p>â€œThe use of the word fire suggests that those who receive this gift with the right heart can expect something more than mere acceptance of certain principles or even baptism by immersion. â€¦ The miracle of the manifestation of fire and the Holy Ghost has the capacity to reach within a personâ€™s heart. While that person may have been a bystander regarding the things of God, the power of the Spirit is able to turn such a person into a living witness of this sacred work.â€ (Elder Loren C. Dunn, Fire and the Holy Ghost, Ensign June 1995)</p>
<p>â€œI indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fireâ€ (John the Baptist in Matthew 3:11)</p>
<p>Some have suggested that it is the baptism of fire that actually makes the remission of sins possible:</p>
<p>â€œBeginning with 1 Nephi, we find these same principles referenced over and over again as a kind of tutorial formula, teaching that if people (1) believe in Christ, (2) repent of their sins, and (3) submit to baptism in water as a witness of their willingness to take Christâ€™s name upon themselves and keep his commandments, he will (4) pour out his Spirit upon them and cleanse them of their sins in a baptism of fire.â€ (Noel B. Raynolds, Ensign Sep 1992)</p>
<p>Some scriptures seem to point to this same thing, that the remission of sins happens due to the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost:</p>
<p>17 Wherefore, do the things which I have told you I have seen that your Lord and your Redeemer should do; for, for this cause have they been shown unto me, that ye might know the gate by which ye should enter. For the gate by which ye should enter is repentance and baptism by water; and then cometh a remission of your sins by fire and by the Holy Ghost. (2 Ne 31:17)</p>
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