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	<title>Comments on: More Muddled Evolution Theory</title>
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	<link>http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2008/12/more-muddled-evolution-theory/652/</link>
	<description>Mormon Musings by yer ol' pals</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Fri, 10 Feb 2012 02:02:11 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: BrianJ</title>
		<link>http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2008/12/more-muddled-evolution-theory/652/comment-page-1/#comment-285986</link>
		<dc:creator>BrianJ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Dec 2008 19:06:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.newcoolthang.com/?p=652#comment-285986</guid>
		<description>There is, wrapped up in this, the assumption that only useful traits evolve. That&#039;s simply not true---even if natural selection were the only force driving evolution and environmental conditions never changed. Some traits are undesirable by-products of the development of other beneficial traits, whereas other traits arise by chance (as Jared* notes).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There is, wrapped up in this, the assumption that only useful traits evolve. That&#8217;s simply not true&#8212;even if natural selection were the only force driving evolution and environmental conditions never changed. Some traits are undesirable by-products of the development of other beneficial traits, whereas other traits arise by chance (as Jared* notes).</p>
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		<title>By: Jacob J</title>
		<link>http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2008/12/more-muddled-evolution-theory/652/comment-page-1/#comment-285963</link>
		<dc:creator>Jacob J</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Dec 2008 17:43:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.newcoolthang.com/?p=652#comment-285963</guid>
		<description>CE,

I am totally baffled by your comment.  Help me understand the distinction you are making between these two positions:

&lt;em&gt;Itâ€™s clear that we donâ€™t evolve every trait that would be useful&lt;/em&gt;

&lt;em&gt;she is merely saying that monogamy will evolve when it is useful enough to increase the chance of survival.&lt;/em&gt;

I must be missing an important nuance, because I agree with your first sentence but strongly dispute the second one.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>CE,</p>
<p>I am totally baffled by your comment.  Help me understand the distinction you are making between these two positions:</p>
<p><em>Itâ€™s clear that we donâ€™t evolve every trait that would be useful</em></p>
<p><em>she is merely saying that monogamy will evolve when it is useful enough to increase the chance of survival.</em></p>
<p>I must be missing an important nuance, because I agree with your first sentence but strongly dispute the second one.</p>
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		<title>By: CE</title>
		<link>http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2008/12/more-muddled-evolution-theory/652/comment-page-1/#comment-283416</link>
		<dc:creator>CE</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Dec 2008 21:46:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.newcoolthang.com/?p=652#comment-283416</guid>
		<description>I agree with Jacob J&#039;s perspective on natural selection: It&#039;s clear that we don&#039;t evolve every trait that would be useful, and it&#039;s folly to conclude that a trait isn&#039;t useful simply because it has not evolved in a population.

But I also agree with Jared* in #9: Ms. Judson doesn&#039;t seem to be saying that monogamy is not useful because it hasn&#039;t evolved; she is merely saying that monogamy will evolve when it is useful enough to increase the chance of survival.

Here is a real-life practical example of how something very useful may not evolve in the presence of a competing trait:

In Neil Shubin&#039;s book &lt;em&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.amazon.com/Your-Inner-Fish-Journey-3-5-Billion-Year/dp/0375424474/ref=pd_bbs_2?ie=UTF8&amp;s=books&amp;qid=1229550195&amp;sr=8-2&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Your Inner Fish&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/em&gt;, he explains how all mammals have essentially the same olfactory sensors, but in species with rich color vision (like humans), most of these sensors have mutated to the point where they are no longer useful for smelling.  The presumption is that rich color vision has proven to be more useful for survival than highly functional smell.  So natural selection keeps the sense of smell sharp in many species.  But in species with rich color vision, smell is less important for survival, so mutations can more ealisy arise and compound over time.  Dolphins (which are also mammals) have olfactory sensors that have mutuated completely beyond use, presumably because they are of no use in the water, so there is no force of natural selection keeping that trait sharp.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with Jacob J&#8217;s perspective on natural selection: It&#8217;s clear that we don&#8217;t evolve every trait that would be useful, and it&#8217;s folly to conclude that a trait isn&#8217;t useful simply because it has not evolved in a population.</p>
<p>But I also agree with Jared* in #9: Ms. Judson doesn&#8217;t seem to be saying that monogamy is not useful because it hasn&#8217;t evolved; she is merely saying that monogamy will evolve when it is useful enough to increase the chance of survival.</p>
<p>Here is a real-life practical example of how something very useful may not evolve in the presence of a competing trait:</p>
<p>In Neil Shubin&#8217;s book <em><a href="http://www.amazon.com/Your-Inner-Fish-Journey-3-5-Billion-Year/dp/0375424474/ref=pd_bbs_2?ie=UTF8&amp;s=books&amp;qid=1229550195&amp;sr=8-2" rel="nofollow">Your Inner Fish</a></em>, he explains how all mammals have essentially the same olfactory sensors, but in species with rich color vision (like humans), most of these sensors have mutated to the point where they are no longer useful for smelling.  The presumption is that rich color vision has proven to be more useful for survival than highly functional smell.  So natural selection keeps the sense of smell sharp in many species.  But in species with rich color vision, smell is less important for survival, so mutations can more ealisy arise and compound over time.  Dolphins (which are also mammals) have olfactory sensors that have mutuated completely beyond use, presumably because they are of no use in the water, so there is no force of natural selection keeping that trait sharp.</p>
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		<title>By: Jacob J</title>
		<link>http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2008/12/more-muddled-evolution-theory/652/comment-page-1/#comment-283193</link>
		<dc:creator>Jacob J</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Dec 2008 05:33:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.newcoolthang.com/?p=652#comment-283193</guid>
		<description>Nate, I knew someone would pick up on that, couldn&#039;t resist.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nate, I knew someone would pick up on that, couldn&#8217;t resist.</p>
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		<title>By: Jacob J</title>
		<link>http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2008/12/more-muddled-evolution-theory/652/comment-page-1/#comment-283192</link>
		<dc:creator>Jacob J</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Dec 2008 05:32:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.newcoolthang.com/?p=652#comment-283192</guid>
		<description>Jared,

Thanks for the comment about Gould.  Acknowledging the significant role of chance is important I think.

On the quote: You are correct about what she is saying, but she goes far beyond the non-controversial point you summarize.  She says:

&lt;em&gt;Judging by the low frequency of monogamy in nature, this is rarely the case.&lt;/em&gt;

From the low frequency of monogamy in nature, she concludes that it is rarely the case that stable couples are more successful at rearing offspring.  You simply cannot get from the evidence to her conclusion without the assumption that when it is useful it will evolve.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jared,</p>
<p>Thanks for the comment about Gould.  Acknowledging the significant role of chance is important I think.</p>
<p>On the quote: You are correct about what she is saying, but she goes far beyond the non-controversial point you summarize.  She says:</p>
<p><em>Judging by the low frequency of monogamy in nature, this is rarely the case.</em></p>
<p>From the low frequency of monogamy in nature, she concludes that it is rarely the case that stable couples are more successful at rearing offspring.  You simply cannot get from the evidence to her conclusion without the assumption that when it is useful it will evolve.</p>
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		<title>By: Nate W.</title>
		<link>http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2008/12/more-muddled-evolution-theory/652/comment-page-1/#comment-283180</link>
		<dc:creator>Nate W.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Dec 2008 04:30:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.newcoolthang.com/?p=652#comment-283180</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;I see this argument applying directly to your question about why &lt;strong&gt;monotony &lt;/strong&gt; has arisen in some circumstances and not others. &lt;/blockquote&gt;Freudian slip?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>I see this argument applying directly to your question about why <strong>monotony </strong> has arisen in some circumstances and not others. </p></blockquote>
<p>Freudian slip?</p>
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		<title>By: Jared*</title>
		<link>http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2008/12/more-muddled-evolution-theory/652/comment-page-1/#comment-283136</link>
		<dc:creator>Jared*</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Dec 2008 01:12:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.newcoolthang.com/?p=652#comment-283136</guid>
		<description>Some argue that there is a problem of too much assumption that natural selection is responsible for everything. A number of scientists, including the late Stephen J. Gould, have pushed back at the notion that all evolution is by natural selection. Chance and contingency are important too. In fact, the smaller a population is, the greater the role chance plays.

On the other hand, I don&#039;t find the quote as offensive as you. I don&#039;t read her to be saying that if monogamy is useful it will evolve. Rather, when it does (rarely) evolve it is because it is more useful (metaphorically speaking, of course) than the norm. That seems like a reasonable presumption to me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Some argue that there is a problem of too much assumption that natural selection is responsible for everything. A number of scientists, including the late Stephen J. Gould, have pushed back at the notion that all evolution is by natural selection. Chance and contingency are important too. In fact, the smaller a population is, the greater the role chance plays.</p>
<p>On the other hand, I don&#8217;t find the quote as offensive as you. I don&#8217;t read her to be saying that if monogamy is useful it will evolve. Rather, when it does (rarely) evolve it is because it is more useful (metaphorically speaking, of course) than the norm. That seems like a reasonable presumption to me.</p>
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		<title>By: Jacob J</title>
		<link>http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2008/12/more-muddled-evolution-theory/652/comment-page-1/#comment-283110</link>
		<dc:creator>Jacob J</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Dec 2008 00:10:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.newcoolthang.com/?p=652#comment-283110</guid>
		<description>Last Lemming,

&lt;em&gt;So one might legitimately wonder why a trait such as a monogamous instinct has evolved in some circumstances, while it is pointless to wonder why firebreathing has never evolved anywhere.&lt;/em&gt;

I don&#039;t know, I can replace firebreathing with plenty of alternates that do occur in nature but make the point equally well.  Why haven&#039;t humans evolved tough skin to protect against injury, or wings for flying, or better night vision?  Is it because these are not useful for promoting survival/reproduction or is it simply because evolution relies on random mutation and you don&#039;t always get what might be useful.  

I see this argument applying directly to your question about why monotony as arisen in some circumstances and not others.  One really obvious possibility is that the random mutation generator created it in one circumstance and not the other one we are comparing to.  If that is the case, we learn nothing, and I don&#039;t see how this can be ruled out.

On your last paragraph beginning &quot;the real logical flaw&quot; I totally agree.  Very good analysis.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Last Lemming,</p>
<p><em>So one might legitimately wonder why a trait such as a monogamous instinct has evolved in some circumstances, while it is pointless to wonder why firebreathing has never evolved anywhere.</em></p>
<p>I don&#8217;t know, I can replace firebreathing with plenty of alternates that do occur in nature but make the point equally well.  Why haven&#8217;t humans evolved tough skin to protect against injury, or wings for flying, or better night vision?  Is it because these are not useful for promoting survival/reproduction or is it simply because evolution relies on random mutation and you don&#8217;t always get what might be useful.  </p>
<p>I see this argument applying directly to your question about why monotony as arisen in some circumstances and not others.  One really obvious possibility is that the random mutation generator created it in one circumstance and not the other one we are comparing to.  If that is the case, we learn nothing, and I don&#8217;t see how this can be ruled out.</p>
<p>On your last paragraph beginning &#8220;the real logical flaw&#8221; I totally agree.  Very good analysis.</p>
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		<title>By: Jacob J</title>
		<link>http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2008/12/more-muddled-evolution-theory/652/comment-page-1/#comment-283107</link>
		<dc:creator>Jacob J</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Dec 2008 00:01:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.newcoolthang.com/?p=652#comment-283107</guid>
		<description>Matt, 

I think the idea is that it evolves genetically.  Here is a quote from the article:

&lt;blockquote&gt;A full understanding of the genetics of attachment is still some way off. But one of the genes that has already been implicated is the arginine vasopressin receptor 1a gene.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Your question is a very important one since the nature/nurture debate comes front and center every time someone simply assumes that everything can be explained genetically.  I think it is worth noting that natural selection can select for memetic behaviors as easily as it does genetic ones.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Matt, </p>
<p>I think the idea is that it evolves genetically.  Here is a quote from the article:</p>
<blockquote><p>A full understanding of the genetics of attachment is still some way off. But one of the genes that has already been implicated is the arginine vasopressin receptor 1a gene.</p></blockquote>
<p>Your question is a very important one since the nature/nurture debate comes front and center every time someone simply assumes that everything can be explained genetically.  I think it is worth noting that natural selection can select for memetic behaviors as easily as it does genetic ones.</p>
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		<title>By: Clark</title>
		<link>http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2008/12/more-muddled-evolution-theory/652/comment-page-1/#comment-283024</link>
		<dc:creator>Clark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Dec 2008 19:33:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.newcoolthang.com/?p=652#comment-283024</guid>
		<description>John, there actually are some very interesting investigations on human evolution in recent times. Some are related to say the ability to digest milk in communities that domesticated animals.  Then there are things like the independent evolution of sickle-cell amenia to deal with malaria.  There are others of that sort with many examples of evolution being fairly recent.  (Say the last 15,000 years)

For current evolution there are some arguments that &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg19626343.900-modern-times-causing-human-evolution-to-accelerate.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;human evolution is actually accelerating&lt;/a&gt;.  The evidence isn&#039;t all in, from what I can see.  But I think it undeniable that things like medical care and intermixing of groups once largely separated is giving evolution the ability to deal with new situations as well as changing the kinds of influence natural selection has to work with.

I suspect once sequencing individual genomes becomes cheap enough to be commonplace that we&#039;ll gain a much better appreciation for how evolution is acting on humans the last few thousand years and today.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John, there actually are some very interesting investigations on human evolution in recent times. Some are related to say the ability to digest milk in communities that domesticated animals.  Then there are things like the independent evolution of sickle-cell amenia to deal with malaria.  There are others of that sort with many examples of evolution being fairly recent.  (Say the last 15,000 years)</p>
<p>For current evolution there are some arguments that <a href="http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg19626343.900-modern-times-causing-human-evolution-to-accelerate.html" rel="nofollow">human evolution is actually accelerating</a>.  The evidence isn&#8217;t all in, from what I can see.  But I think it undeniable that things like medical care and intermixing of groups once largely separated is giving evolution the ability to deal with new situations as well as changing the kinds of influence natural selection has to work with.</p>
<p>I suspect once sequencing individual genomes becomes cheap enough to be commonplace that we&#8217;ll gain a much better appreciation for how evolution is acting on humans the last few thousand years and today.</p>
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