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	<title>Comments on: The Atonement as Theodicy</title>
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	<link>http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2008/09/the-atonement-as-theodicy/559/</link>
	<description>Mormon Musings by yer ol' pals</description>
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		<title>By: Matt W.</title>
		<link>http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2008/09/the-atonement-as-theodicy/559/comment-page-3/#comment-423398</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt W.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Mar 2011 18:24:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2008/09/the-atonement-as-theodicy/559/#comment-423398</guid>
		<description>I cleaned up the post. It seems wordpress has taken all of our old posts and converts quote marks to garbage. I am afraid I haven&#039;t the time to clean up all the comments.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I cleaned up the post. It seems wordpress has taken all of our old posts and converts quote marks to garbage. I am afraid I haven&#8217;t the time to clean up all the comments.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark D.</title>
		<link>http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2008/09/the-atonement-as-theodicy/559/comment-page-3/#comment-317221</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark D.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Mar 2009 05:31:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2008/09/the-atonement-as-theodicy/559/#comment-317221</guid>
		<description>Matt W.,  I fundamentally agree with the position you have established in this post. Well said.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Matt W.,  I fundamentally agree with the position you have established in this post. Well said.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt W.</title>
		<link>http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2008/09/the-atonement-as-theodicy/559/comment-page-3/#comment-317162</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt W.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Mar 2009 19:06:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2008/09/the-atonement-as-theodicy/559/#comment-317162</guid>
		<description>Kent: I don&#039;t know that Christ suffers in the sense I am thinking of here. If I expand to the idea of suffering in general, then I fall back to coping abilities, like Geoff and I discussed in this thread before Howard took it over. Geoff and I agreed on the premise that the plan of salvation and atonement are factors/events which take us from a state of more suffering to less suffering in the sense that we gain greater coping mechanisms and ability to overcome. It&#039;s a question of what sort of suffering a pre-mortal spirit has. I am positing that this form suffering comes from the severed relationships and personal dissonance (self-deception and spiritual anguish) we have as conscious beings when we seek to define ourselves in terms of self, rather than as part of the interdependent community. 

I&#039;m no expert on Buddhism or Hinduism, and I am surely putting words into the mouths here, but I just find this model extremely appealing, where you are a one life, one shot or MMP person. I&#039;ll try to through a post together on it eventually.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kent: I don&#8217;t know that Christ suffers in the sense I am thinking of here. If I expand to the idea of suffering in general, then I fall back to coping abilities, like Geoff and I discussed in this thread before Howard took it over. Geoff and I agreed on the premise that the plan of salvation and atonement are factors/events which take us from a state of more suffering to less suffering in the sense that we gain greater coping mechanisms and ability to overcome. It&#8217;s a question of what sort of suffering a pre-mortal spirit has. I am positing that this form suffering comes from the severed relationships and personal dissonance (self-deception and spiritual anguish) we have as conscious beings when we seek to define ourselves in terms of self, rather than as part of the interdependent community. </p>
<p>I&#8217;m no expert on Buddhism or Hinduism, and I am surely putting words into the mouths here, but I just find this model extremely appealing, where you are a one life, one shot or MMP person. I&#8217;ll try to through a post together on it eventually.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt W.</title>
		<link>http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2008/09/the-atonement-as-theodicy/559/comment-page-3/#comment-317161</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt W.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Mar 2009 18:47:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2008/09/the-atonement-as-theodicy/559/#comment-317161</guid>
		<description>Selfishness may be the wrong word. Maybe we could say that suffering in the premortal sense is directly connected to greed, pride and appetite?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Selfishness may be the wrong word. Maybe we could say that suffering in the premortal sense is directly connected to greed, pride and appetite?</p>
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		<title>By: Geoff J</title>
		<link>http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2008/09/the-atonement-as-theodicy/559/comment-page-3/#comment-317160</link>
		<dc:creator>Geoff J</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Mar 2009 18:42:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2008/09/the-atonement-as-theodicy/559/#comment-317160</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;How so?&lt;/em&gt;

It is pretty self evident Matt.  We are usually selfish to avoid our own short term suffering.  We fail to share our good stuff because we want more of it ourselves.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>How so?</em></p>
<p>It is pretty self evident Matt.  We are usually selfish to avoid our own short term suffering.  We fail to share our good stuff because we want more of it ourselves.</p>
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		<title>By: Kent (MC)</title>
		<link>http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2008/09/the-atonement-as-theodicy/559/comment-page-3/#comment-317157</link>
		<dc:creator>Kent (MC)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Mar 2009 18:25:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2008/09/the-atonement-as-theodicy/559/#comment-317157</guid>
		<description>Matt, I believe Christ suffers because of his generosity and desire to be at-one with us. If my suffering is environmental (physical pain), I don&#039;t know how it could come from selfishness.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Matt, I believe Christ suffers because of his generosity and desire to be at-one with us. If my suffering is environmental (physical pain), I don&#8217;t know how it could come from selfishness.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt W.</title>
		<link>http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2008/09/the-atonement-as-theodicy/559/comment-page-3/#comment-317155</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt W.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Mar 2009 18:22:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2008/09/the-atonement-as-theodicy/559/#comment-317155</guid>
		<description>How so?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How so?</p>
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		<title>By: Geoff J</title>
		<link>http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2008/09/the-atonement-as-theodicy/559/comment-page-3/#comment-317139</link>
		<dc:creator>Geoff J</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Mar 2009 16:50:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2008/09/the-atonement-as-theodicy/559/#comment-317139</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;Suffering comes from selfishness&lt;/em&gt;

These seems demonstrably wrong to me (at least in the near term)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>Suffering comes from selfishness</em></p>
<p>These seems demonstrably wrong to me (at least in the near term)</p>
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		<title>By: Matt W.</title>
		<link>http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2008/09/the-atonement-as-theodicy/559/comment-page-2/#comment-317123</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt W.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Mar 2009 15:27:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2008/09/the-atonement-as-theodicy/559/#comment-317123</guid>
		<description>Geoff: 

As I recall, a major hanging point for you here was how I define pre-mortal suffering, or rather, my lack of defining pre-mortal suffering. Sorry, to come back to it so late, but I&#039;d like to define pre-mortal suffering here as I did in my post about &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2007/12/learning-from-our-religious-big-brothers-hinduism/483/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Hinduism&lt;/a&gt;. This understanding of eternal suffering is also extant in &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.thebigview.com/buddhism/fourtruths.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Buddhism.&lt;/a&gt; To paraphrase, Suffering comes from selfishness, and individuals are selfish as a state of being. But the Third noble truth of Buddhism is that this suffering can be alleviated by alleviating selfishness. I believe that where Mormonism and Buddhism differ is that the 4th Noble Truth of Buddhism outlines a path of self-effort which leads to the cessation of suffering, whereas our Faith points to Christ and a community of interdependent beings relying on Christ and each other to come to the same cessation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Geoff: </p>
<p>As I recall, a major hanging point for you here was how I define pre-mortal suffering, or rather, my lack of defining pre-mortal suffering. Sorry, to come back to it so late, but I&#8217;d like to define pre-mortal suffering here as I did in my post about <a href="http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2007/12/learning-from-our-religious-big-brothers-hinduism/483/" rel="nofollow">Hinduism</a>. This understanding of eternal suffering is also extant in <a href="http://www.thebigview.com/buddhism/fourtruths.html" rel="nofollow">Buddhism.</a> To paraphrase, Suffering comes from selfishness, and individuals are selfish as a state of being. But the Third noble truth of Buddhism is that this suffering can be alleviated by alleviating selfishness. I believe that where Mormonism and Buddhism differ is that the 4th Noble Truth of Buddhism outlines a path of self-effort which leads to the cessation of suffering, whereas our Faith points to Christ and a community of interdependent beings relying on Christ and each other to come to the same cessation.</p>
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		<title>By: Geoff J</title>
		<link>http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2008/09/the-atonement-as-theodicy/559/comment-page-2/#comment-245303</link>
		<dc:creator>Geoff J</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Sep 2008 16:15:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2008/09/the-atonement-as-theodicy/559/#comment-245303</guid>
		<description>Howard (#92): &lt;em&gt;So, when you are feeling grouchy you feel justified in being condescending? &lt;/em&gt;

If it makes you feel better -- I only act condescendingly to you because I suspect I&#039;m smarter, better looking, and better smelling than you.  Oh and I think I have better manners at other people&#039;s blogs than you do as well.  But other than that I have no good reasons to condescend.

&lt;em&gt;My daughter does the same thing.&lt;/em&gt;

Well it might be because she is smarter, better looking,  and better smelling than you too, no?  I&#039;ll bet she has better manners than you when she comments at blogs at least.

&lt;em&gt;It makes you grouchy to loose, so you respond by calling me a dick in code?&lt;/em&gt;

A) The word you are looking for is &quot;lose&quot;, not &quot;loose&quot;.  And since I didn&#039;t lose anything (I was being sarcastic when I made comment #84 -- you obviously lost the actual argument about God suffering) this part doesn&#039;t apply to me.

B) I didn&#039;t call you a dick, I called you a tool.  Since you love dictionaries, here is the definition of a tool from the urban dictionary:

&lt;blockquote&gt;One who lacks the mental capacity to know he is being used. A fool. A cretin. Characterized by low intelligence and/or self-steem. &lt;/blockquote&gt;

C) Now that you mention it -- yeah you do seem like kind of a dick too.  Thanks for pointing that out.

And all this brings me to my final point.  You have repeatedly proven to have atrocious blog manners. That makes you a minor troll in my eyes.  Yes, sometimes you have not acted trollishly, but you have acted like a troll too many times for my tastes. This is my blog and I require my guests here to not act like trolls.  Therefore, I&#039;m dropping all of your comments into moderation for a while.  Perhaps you can improve your manners and eventually find yourself out of Thang probation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Howard (#92): <em>So, when you are feeling grouchy you feel justified in being condescending? </em></p>
<p>If it makes you feel better &#8212; I only act condescendingly to you because I suspect I&#8217;m smarter, better looking, and better smelling than you.  Oh and I think I have better manners at other people&#8217;s blogs than you do as well.  But other than that I have no good reasons to condescend.</p>
<p><em>My daughter does the same thing.</em></p>
<p>Well it might be because she is smarter, better looking,  and better smelling than you too, no?  I&#8217;ll bet she has better manners than you when she comments at blogs at least.</p>
<p><em>It makes you grouchy to loose, so you respond by calling me a dick in code?</em></p>
<p>A) The word you are looking for is &#8220;lose&#8221;, not &#8220;loose&#8221;.  And since I didn&#8217;t lose anything (I was being sarcastic when I made comment #84 &#8212; you obviously lost the actual argument about God suffering) this part doesn&#8217;t apply to me.</p>
<p>B) I didn&#8217;t call you a dick, I called you a tool.  Since you love dictionaries, here is the definition of a tool from the urban dictionary:</p>
<blockquote><p>One who lacks the mental capacity to know he is being used. A fool. A cretin. Characterized by low intelligence and/or self-steem. </p></blockquote>
<p>C) Now that you mention it &#8212; yeah you do seem like kind of a dick too.  Thanks for pointing that out.</p>
<p>And all this brings me to my final point.  You have repeatedly proven to have atrocious blog manners. That makes you a minor troll in my eyes.  Yes, sometimes you have not acted trollishly, but you have acted like a troll too many times for my tastes. This is my blog and I require my guests here to not act like trolls.  Therefore, I&#8217;m dropping all of your comments into moderation for a while.  Perhaps you can improve your manners and eventually find yourself out of Thang probation.</p>
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