Let me try and be clearer.

1. I was rambling based on Jacob 3:9, which says:

revile [no more] against them because of their filthiness; but ye shall remember your own filthiness, and remember that their filthiness came because of their fathers.

So I was musing along the lines that the two groups were different in that one was “filthy” due to their own choice and the other filthy because of their fathers. It is true, it is important we have the freedom to choose, but we can choose then not to follow the savior. This is the risk I was talking about. In Satan’s plan, which was evil, Satan wanted to keep us in a state were we could not progress, but this state was attractive to many (1/3rd) exactly because of this, no one could progress, but there was no chance that anyone could fail or regress either. Ultimately, there paradox is, in part, that we MUST make a choice, and in that, we have no choice, because of the way life is. Eventually, everyone will reach a point where they will know they are wrong and they can either choose to repent and come unto Christ, or they can choose to turn away.

ALso, I don’t think we take advantage of the atonement when we make a bad choice, but rather when we repent.

Hope this clears things up.

I agree that these blogs can go different directions then Sunday school at home, but it is a good chance to think out loud and use someone as a sounding board for out thoughts. I encourage you to continue these blogs, because it will help you and me to continue to understand the gospel and grow closer to the Savior.

I agree with Clark when he says that we go “beyond the mark” when we stop asking questions and start to tell others what the spirit is telling them. It is important that we allow the spirit to teach us, and one way for some of us is discussing how things work in the gospel and receiving revelation. That is what these blogs are about is trying to get in tune and receive the revelation that will help us through our daily trials and return to live with God.

I have just one issue to discuss in regards to the idea of choices (it may have been discussed in another thread, if so please point me to the right place to comment). You said “God wants us to make a choice, however, it is better for us to be determined rather than make a bad choice.” I don’t think it is better for us to not make a choice. A big part of the plan our Father established was that we come to this earth to make choices. When we make a wrong choice (sin/transgression) God made it possible to overcome that choice and this is the Atonement. If it were better for us to be determined then Satan’s plan would have been approved and the “better” plan would have been to just make no choices. I may not be understanding your analogy here, but it is always better for us to make a choice then to be slaves. That is not the purpose of life to be slaves but to be agents.

In the end of your paradox you say, “So making choices is better than not making choices, but making bad choices is worse.” I would disagree that making a choice is always better than not being capable of making a choice (slave). If we make a bad choice then we take advantage of the atonement. I think it is important to have the ability to make choices, because we learn from these choices (good or bad). You are correct that when we make a wrong choice we are then cut off from god and the spirit, but because of the atonement (which we are still learning how it works) we are able to learn and grow to become closer to perfection. The Atonement is so important because it is always allows us to make a choice. We always have the ability to repent and come to God and Christ. The times we can’t make a choice is when we are then not being like god. Learning to be like God is a very important, if not the purpose for this life.

Lastly, you said that the atonement “God has set up the entire system of the atonement to improve our odds in overcoming the risks of making bad choices.” I again have to disagree with this statement. The atonement does not “improve” our odds of overcoming the risks. As we take advantage of the Atonement there are not risks to returning to live with God, we are guarnteed to live with God. This is a promise from God and Christ not a poker game of risks.
I may be misunderstanding you “odds in overcoming risks”, but the odds are defiantly in our favor that we will overcome as long as we have faith in Christ (100%). I may not be understanding your paradox correctly and you are saying that with the atonement humanity as a whole increases our odds of more people returning, but I think you are speaking as an individual here and not humanity. Please steer me correct if I am missing your point (which could be the case).

I appreciate the opportunity to read the different arguments and aspects of the Gospel and how they affect our daily lives. Please continue with your “ramblings” as we can all learn something from each other, no matter who that other person is.

Well, I am not perfectly clear on what you mean by self-awareness. Your basic point about intentionally choosing evil being worse than unconsciously going with the flow seems sound, but I don’t think we can throw all the things we do based on the “traditions of our fathers” as being causally determined.

I’m far too aware of my intellectual limitations and too skeptical of my inquiries to be able to look beyond the mark.

That’s a really good point. I want to understand the atonement more because I’ve had a good experience with it before. I guess I think I could get more out of it if I understood more. If I didn’t think that, my interest might wane. For example, I’m pretty sure there isn’t more I could get out of my TV by understanding it’s inner workings better (I am probably wrong about this, but you know what I mean) so I live with a certain level of mystery in many aspects of my life that I totally believe in, but I think it is the belief I have that if I understood the gospel and atonement better, I’d be better for it.

Anyway, I was really thinking about your animals post as I was writing about determinism vs free will, with the major difference being self-awareness. Do you agree with that?

Har! I suppose this is largely because we bring up controversial/debatable things for discussion here. There are loads of things we all agree on at the same time though.

I really like Clark’s comment in #2. Thinking about the gospel keeps me feeling connected to it even if that thinking comes across as ostentatious and “looking beyond the mark” to someone else. I don’t think that everyone gets value from the same things, which is why blogging is cool because those of us who get something out of it can come together across great distance.

Experiencing the power of the atonement is my motivation for wanting to explore it and understand it. I don’t study so that it will be effective in my life, I study it because it is effective in my life. Not wanting to understand things you believe in is a foreign concept to me.

The complaint I often here is that you don’t need to understand the atonement to benefit from it. I agree with this, as someone who can not claim to understand the atonement completely. However, if you are not seeking out the atonement constantly, can you really be benefitting from it as well as you would otherwise?

SS lessons are designed for mass consumption, if blogging fails to go beyond SS, why blog?