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	<title>Comments on: What the scriptures actually tell us about the Light of Christ. Part 1</title>
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	<link>http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2007/10/what-the-scriptures-actually-tell-us-about-the-light-of-christ-part-1/460/</link>
	<description>Mormon Musings by yer ol' pals</description>
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		<title>By: Howard</title>
		<link>http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2007/10/what-the-scriptures-actually-tell-us-about-the-light-of-christ-part-1/460/comment-page-1/#comment-112160</link>
		<dc:creator>Howard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Oct 2007 07:37:02 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Mark D. #10 

&lt;em&gt;&quot;More recent authorities have backed off JFS2â€™s assertion...&quot;&lt;/em&gt;
Are you referring to Joel 2:28? Or?

Boyd K. Packer in 2005 quotes JFS2:   
&lt;blockquote&gt;â€œEvery man can receive a manifestation of the Holy Ghost, even when he is out of the Church, if he is earnestly seeking for the light and for the truth. The Holy Ghost will come and give the man the testimony he is seeking, and then withdraw; and the man does not have a claim upon another visit or constant visits and manifestations from him. He may have the constant guidance of that other Spirit, the Spirit of Christ.â€&lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mark D. #10 </p>
<p><em>&#8220;More recent authorities have backed off JFS2â€™s assertion&#8230;&#8221;</em><br />
Are you referring to Joel 2:28? Or?</p>
<p>Boyd K. Packer in 2005 quotes JFS2:   </p>
<blockquote><p>â€œEvery man can receive a manifestation of the Holy Ghost, even when he is out of the Church, if he is earnestly seeking for the light and for the truth. The Holy Ghost will come and give the man the testimony he is seeking, and then withdraw; and the man does not have a claim upon another visit or constant visits and manifestations from him. He may have the constant guidance of that other Spirit, the Spirit of Christ.â€</p></blockquote>
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		<title>By: Mark D.</title>
		<link>http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2007/10/what-the-scriptures-actually-tell-us-about-the-light-of-christ-part-1/460/comment-page-1/#comment-112143</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark D.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Oct 2007 05:28:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2007/10/what-the-scriptures-actually-tell-us-about-the-light-of-christ-part-1/460/#comment-112143</guid>
		<description>Jacob,

Nonetheless, that is purely a formal distinction.  There is little or no evidence of a metaphysical difference between the two.  Just two names for the same thing, distinguished only by convention.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jacob,</p>
<p>Nonetheless, that is purely a formal distinction.  There is little or no evidence of a metaphysical difference between the two.  Just two names for the same thing, distinguished only by convention.</p>
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		<title>By: Jacob J</title>
		<link>http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2007/10/what-the-scriptures-actually-tell-us-about-the-light-of-christ-part-1/460/comment-page-1/#comment-112033</link>
		<dc:creator>Jacob J</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Oct 2007 20:30:22 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Mark,

I agree that some such distinction is necessary.  Going back to your first comment, you said:

&lt;em&gt;I donâ€™t think one can draw a hard distinction between the light of Christ and the influence of the Holy Ghost, or the Spirit. They appear to function in the same way and for the same purpose&lt;/em&gt;

I think the distinction is not in how they function, but in the conditions upon which they are given.  The light of Christ is given without condition to everyone whereas an increase in the spirit is conditioned upon our acting in accordance with the light we&#039;ve been given.  Same for the gift of the Holy Ghost, given on condition.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mark,</p>
<p>I agree that some such distinction is necessary.  Going back to your first comment, you said:</p>
<p><em>I donâ€™t think one can draw a hard distinction between the light of Christ and the influence of the Holy Ghost, or the Spirit. They appear to function in the same way and for the same purpose</em></p>
<p>I think the distinction is not in how they function, but in the conditions upon which they are given.  The light of Christ is given without condition to everyone whereas an increase in the spirit is conditioned upon our acting in accordance with the light we&#8217;ve been given.  Same for the gift of the Holy Ghost, given on condition.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark D.</title>
		<link>http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2007/10/what-the-scriptures-actually-tell-us-about-the-light-of-christ-part-1/460/comment-page-1/#comment-112031</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark D.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Oct 2007 20:20:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2007/10/what-the-scriptures-actually-tell-us-about-the-light-of-christ-part-1/460/#comment-112031</guid>
		<description>Howard (#5),

More recent authorities have backed off JFS2&#039;s assertion in favor of the distinction between feeling the &lt;em&gt;influence&lt;/em&gt; of the Holy Ghost and receiving the &lt;em&gt;gift&lt;/em&gt; of the Holy Ghost.  There is ample scriptural evidence for this. 1 Ne 13:15, Hel 5:45, and 3 Ne 9:20 are typical.

Jacob J (#4),

The natural law stuff is implied by verses 7-9 in particular: 

&lt;blockquote&gt;&quot;Which truth shineth. This is the light of Christ. As also he is in the sun, and the &lt;em&gt;light of the sun&lt;/em&gt;, and the power thereof by which it was made. As also he is in the moon, and &lt;em&gt;is the light of the moon&lt;/em&gt;, and the power thereof by which it was made; As also the &lt;em&gt;light of the stars&lt;/em&gt;, and the power thereof by which they were made&quot;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Now it is certainly possible that there are lower level natural laws that are truly natural, and that light, gravitation, etc. are higher level phenomena that are a consequence of divine ordering (That is Stephen E. Robinson&#039;s position as I understand it), but refusing to draw such a distinction borders on pantheism.  Surely God is distinct from the primeval chaos.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Howard (#5),</p>
<p>More recent authorities have backed off JFS2&#8242;s assertion in favor of the distinction between feeling the <em>influence</em> of the Holy Ghost and receiving the <em>gift</em> of the Holy Ghost.  There is ample scriptural evidence for this. 1 Ne 13:15, Hel 5:45, and 3 Ne 9:20 are typical.</p>
<p>Jacob J (#4),</p>
<p>The natural law stuff is implied by verses 7-9 in particular: </p>
<blockquote><p>&#8220;Which truth shineth. This is the light of Christ. As also he is in the sun, and the <em>light of the sun</em>, and the power thereof by which it was made. As also he is in the moon, and <em>is the light of the moon</em>, and the power thereof by which it was made; As also the <em>light of the stars</em>, and the power thereof by which they were made&#8221;</p></blockquote>
<p>Now it is certainly possible that there are lower level natural laws that are truly natural, and that light, gravitation, etc. are higher level phenomena that are a consequence of divine ordering (That is Stephen E. Robinson&#8217;s position as I understand it), but refusing to draw such a distinction borders on pantheism.  Surely God is distinct from the primeval chaos.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt W.</title>
		<link>http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2007/10/what-the-scriptures-actually-tell-us-about-the-light-of-christ-part-1/460/comment-page-1/#comment-111961</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt W.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Oct 2007 14:44:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2007/10/what-the-scriptures-actually-tell-us-about-the-light-of-christ-part-1/460/#comment-111961</guid>
		<description>J. #8 I can&#039;t yet give a perfect answer for that. My current opinion is that the light of Christ is a set of information we can use to inform our decisions and help us discern between good and evil. This information may however be rejected, unutilized, or misunderstood (though not eliminated, I think) Personally I think psychopaths or sociopaths may have the information, but may be unable to utilize it due to the physical constraints put upon them by their fallen bodies. Thus, they are blameless. 

This question may get more light as I do another post or 2.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>J. #8 I can&#8217;t yet give a perfect answer for that. My current opinion is that the light of Christ is a set of information we can use to inform our decisions and help us discern between good and evil. This information may however be rejected, unutilized, or misunderstood (though not eliminated, I think) Personally I think psychopaths or sociopaths may have the information, but may be unable to utilize it due to the physical constraints put upon them by their fallen bodies. Thus, they are blameless. </p>
<p>This question may get more light as I do another post or 2.</p>
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		<title>By: J. Stapley</title>
		<link>http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2007/10/what-the-scriptures-actually-tell-us-about-the-light-of-christ-part-1/460/comment-page-1/#comment-111958</link>
		<dc:creator>J. Stapley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Oct 2007 14:34:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2007/10/what-the-scriptures-actually-tell-us-about-the-light-of-christ-part-1/460/#comment-111958</guid>
		<description>Do think that psychopaths do not have the Light of Christ?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Do think that psychopaths do not have the Light of Christ?</p>
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		<title>By: Matt W.</title>
		<link>http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2007/10/what-the-scriptures-actually-tell-us-about-the-light-of-christ-part-1/460/comment-page-1/#comment-111949</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt W.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Oct 2007 14:06:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2007/10/what-the-scriptures-actually-tell-us-about-the-light-of-christ-part-1/460/#comment-111949</guid>
		<description>Mark B.- I&#039;ll get to D&amp;C 88 in part 3, so I won&#039;t address that part of your comment yet, but keep these thoughts handy for then. 

I would like to respond to this though:

&lt;em&gt;I donâ€™t think one can draw a hard distinction between the light of Christ and the influence of the Holy Ghost, or the Spirit. They appear to function in the same way and for the same purpose,&lt;/em&gt;

I&#039;d say that from my analysis of Alma 28-29, the light of Christ, to me, seems more like Information we have available to us internally, like a map or an algorhythm or a rulebook or something, which we can use to process and parse information. Whether we reject or accept this information is up to us, as it is only information. In this sense, the influence of the Holy Ghost is also just information, so I would agree with you, if that is what you are getting at.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mark B.- I&#8217;ll get to D&amp;C 88 in part 3, so I won&#8217;t address that part of your comment yet, but keep these thoughts handy for then. </p>
<p>I would like to respond to this though:</p>
<p><em>I donâ€™t think one can draw a hard distinction between the light of Christ and the influence of the Holy Ghost, or the Spirit. They appear to function in the same way and for the same purpose,</em></p>
<p>I&#8217;d say that from my analysis of Alma 28-29, the light of Christ, to me, seems more like Information we have available to us internally, like a map or an algorhythm or a rulebook or something, which we can use to process and parse information. Whether we reject or accept this information is up to us, as it is only information. In this sense, the influence of the Holy Ghost is also just information, so I would agree with you, if that is what you are getting at.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt W.</title>
		<link>http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2007/10/what-the-scriptures-actually-tell-us-about-the-light-of-christ-part-1/460/comment-page-1/#comment-111947</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt W.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Oct 2007 13:58:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2007/10/what-the-scriptures-actually-tell-us-about-the-light-of-christ-part-1/460/#comment-111947</guid>
		<description>Jacob J: #1- My question of the authorship becomes more aparant, I think, when one notes that the &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.irr.org/mit/BOM/1830bom-p303.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;original&lt;/a&gt; had no Chapter brake between 28 and 29. The strongest case for Alma authoring it is the discussion of brethren, as you noted. However, could Mormon not also call these his brethren? It seems that the best indicator then is the tense: &quot;my brethren...have been up to the Land of Nephi.&quot; This sense of talking about the events as if they were present, as I said before, begins in vs 11 of chapter 28. It seems to me that it is difficult to discern where Mormon ends and Alma begins here. Perhaps it is unimportant, but I am holding on to the idea that both the final verses of chapter 28 and all of 29 were penned by the same Author. It seems to make more sense to me that way, But I am interested in this concept that &quot;and thus we see&quot; is an indicator that this is Mormon speaking. I&#039;ll investigate &lt;a href=&quot;http://scriptures.lds.org/en/search?search=%22and+thus+we+see%22&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;that.&lt;/a&gt; From a quick glance, it is an interesting concept to say the least.

As for the &quot;Light of Christ&quot; in the bible, I am limiting my scope to where the term &quot;Light of Christ&quot; is explicitly used at this time. I may expand to general usage of the term light later on, but I was trying to limit my scope to make this manageable and to make sure I am not going to be accused of &lt;em&gt;sensus plenoir&lt;/em&gt;(sp?). 

To respond to a couple of other points you made: I think Alma/Mormon is setting up a synonymous nature between [eternal] life and [eternal] joy and [eternal] death and [eternal] remorse of conscience.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jacob J: #1- My question of the authorship becomes more aparant, I think, when one notes that the <a href="http://www.irr.org/mit/BOM/1830bom-p303.html" rel="nofollow">original</a> had no Chapter brake between 28 and 29. The strongest case for Alma authoring it is the discussion of brethren, as you noted. However, could Mormon not also call these his brethren? It seems that the best indicator then is the tense: &#8220;my brethren&#8230;have been up to the Land of Nephi.&#8221; This sense of talking about the events as if they were present, as I said before, begins in vs 11 of chapter 28. It seems to me that it is difficult to discern where Mormon ends and Alma begins here. Perhaps it is unimportant, but I am holding on to the idea that both the final verses of chapter 28 and all of 29 were penned by the same Author. It seems to make more sense to me that way, But I am interested in this concept that &#8220;and thus we see&#8221; is an indicator that this is Mormon speaking. I&#8217;ll investigate <a href="http://scriptures.lds.org/en/search?search=%22and+thus+we+see%22" rel="nofollow">that.</a> From a quick glance, it is an interesting concept to say the least.</p>
<p>As for the &#8220;Light of Christ&#8221; in the bible, I am limiting my scope to where the term &#8220;Light of Christ&#8221; is explicitly used at this time. I may expand to general usage of the term light later on, but I was trying to limit my scope to make this manageable and to make sure I am not going to be accused of <em>sensus plenoir</em>(sp?). </p>
<p>To respond to a couple of other points you made: I think Alma/Mormon is setting up a synonymous nature between [eternal] life and [eternal] joy and [eternal] death and [eternal] remorse of conscience.</p>
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		<title>By: Howard</title>
		<link>http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2007/10/what-the-scriptures-actually-tell-us-about-the-light-of-christ-part-1/460/comment-page-1/#comment-111902</link>
		<dc:creator>Howard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Oct 2007 04:43:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2007/10/what-the-scriptures-actually-tell-us-about-the-light-of-christ-part-1/460/#comment-111902</guid>
		<description>Joseph Fielding Smith, &lt;em&gt;Answers to Gospel Questions&lt;/em&gt; contrasts the Light of Christ with the Holy Ghost and suggests that Joel 2:28 refers to the Light of Christ (eventually resulting in prophesy, dreams and visions):

&lt;blockquote&gt;One is a Personage of Spirit and the third member in the Godhead. The other is a spirit of light and truth which fills the immensity of space and gives light to the intelligence of men, whether they believe in Christ or not.

Moroni has proclaimed that any honest seeker after truth who diligently asks of the Lord, will receive a manifestation of the truth through the Holy Ghost...then the person has no further claim for further manifestations, until he has complied with the law...we must conclude that the enlightenment that comes to men in the world...must be from some other source...the Lord said through Joel, that he would pour out his spirit on all flesh (Joel 2:28.)...the Spirit of Christ (sometimes called the Light of Christ, and Spirit of truth, or Spirit of Jesus Christ) is a spirit that is given to EVERY MAN, no matter who he is or what is his belief.&lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Joseph Fielding Smith, <em>Answers to Gospel Questions</em> contrasts the Light of Christ with the Holy Ghost and suggests that Joel 2:28 refers to the Light of Christ (eventually resulting in prophesy, dreams and visions):</p>
<blockquote><p>One is a Personage of Spirit and the third member in the Godhead. The other is a spirit of light and truth which fills the immensity of space and gives light to the intelligence of men, whether they believe in Christ or not.</p>
<p>Moroni has proclaimed that any honest seeker after truth who diligently asks of the Lord, will receive a manifestation of the truth through the Holy Ghost&#8230;then the person has no further claim for further manifestations, until he has complied with the law&#8230;we must conclude that the enlightenment that comes to men in the world&#8230;must be from some other source&#8230;the Lord said through Joel, that he would pour out his spirit on all flesh (Joel 2:28.)&#8230;the Spirit of Christ (sometimes called the Light of Christ, and Spirit of truth, or Spirit of Jesus Christ) is a spirit that is given to EVERY MAN, no matter who he is or what is his belief.</p></blockquote>
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		<title>By: Jacob J</title>
		<link>http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2007/10/what-the-scriptures-actually-tell-us-about-the-light-of-christ-part-1/460/comment-page-1/#comment-111899</link>
		<dc:creator>Jacob J</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Oct 2007 04:22:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2007/10/what-the-scriptures-actually-tell-us-about-the-light-of-christ-part-1/460/#comment-111899</guid>
		<description>Mark,

&lt;em&gt;D&amp;C 88 implies that the light of Christ (which proceeds forth from his presence) is the â€œlaw by which all things are governedâ€. Now suppose that God turned his back on the universe for a moment. Would apples still fall from trees? Would electrons cease going around in their orbits? &lt;/em&gt;

I&#039;m not so sure this interpretation of the law is reasonable within the context of D&amp;C 88.  There is no hint whatsoever that the &quot;law&quot; refers to physics.  Compare D&amp;C 88:21-25 which talks about being &quot;sanctified through the law which I have given unto you, even the law of Christ&quot; and not &quot;transgressing&quot; the law.  This doesn&#039;t sound like physics.  Rather, it sounds like a moral law, which governs, not the orbits of electrons, but the differences between celestial/terrestrial/telestial kingdoms.  It is worth noting that conscience has been referred to as &quot;the moral law within.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mark,</p>
<p><em>D&#038;C 88 implies that the light of Christ (which proceeds forth from his presence) is the â€œlaw by which all things are governedâ€. Now suppose that God turned his back on the universe for a moment. Would apples still fall from trees? Would electrons cease going around in their orbits? </em></p>
<p>I&#8217;m not so sure this interpretation of the law is reasonable within the context of D&#038;C 88.  There is no hint whatsoever that the &#8220;law&#8221; refers to physics.  Compare D&#038;C 88:21-25 which talks about being &#8220;sanctified through the law which I have given unto you, even the law of Christ&#8221; and not &#8220;transgressing&#8221; the law.  This doesn&#8217;t sound like physics.  Rather, it sounds like a moral law, which governs, not the orbits of electrons, but the differences between celestial/terrestrial/telestial kingdoms.  It is worth noting that conscience has been referred to as &#8220;the moral law within.&#8221;</p>
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