Well the question is what is “it”? It could be outer darkness or exaltation after all right? If we can spiritually progress we can spiritually retrogress too. That is why I say there are no guarantees on our final destination even with progression/retrogression between kingdoms being true.

As for some people being exalted as a result of this probation — I have no doubt that is true. Most people will probably take a lot more time though I think.

I am a strong proponent of the idea, if it can happen, given enough time, it will happen. Lets see, forever, yea, that is enough time. :)

I have always taken the “filthy rags” thing as an exaggeration to make a point. And as long as the works are done with your view in mind, “Pure kindness and mercy” then I would agree. But I think the BOM makes it clear that we can do things for the wrong reason and it not be counted as anything good.

After reading “Bonds That Make Us Free” I would maintain that we really do need a change of heart before we can do anything good.

Geoff, I am not trying to argue just for the sake of arguing. If I really do have all of this wrong, then I do need to change/see things differently. But I have never been able to see how I have things wrong. I know, I am very thick headed.

Yes he could, and yes it would probably still take lifetime(s) of God-assisted character change and good works for him to become like Christ. But I think it is safe to assume that Paul has been doing good and has been becoming more Christlike for the last 2000 years in the spirit world.

If one believes that there will be progress from a lower kingdom to a higher one, as I do, then there really is no problem.

Will be or can be? I too am a believer in the possibility of progression between kingdoms but I also believe that free will is eternal so there are no guarantees of progression. There, as here, spiritual progress is the result of freely made choices.

I agree that a mighty change of heart through the Holy Ghost is crucial. I disagree that human kindness and mercy and graciousness one to another are ever seen as “filthy rags” by Christ though. That is one of those ridiculous things evangelicals are always spouting and I think it is poppycock. Pure kindness and mercy are always smiled upon by heaven no matter who they come from.

Clark, Robert C. has a new post over at “Feast upon the Word Blog” that would be a nice place for you to explain the “huge differences with our Evangelical friends” that you mention. I would like to see just what those differences are. And I do tend to over simply things, so you are probably right about some of those things. http://feastuponthewordblog.org/2007/07/31/intro-to-paul-grace-and-works-and-ephesians/

Geoff – The jumping as high as the moon analogy was just to show that trying to perfect ourselves is as impossible as jumping as high as the moon. If we could perfect ourselves, we would not need a savior.

When you say “We become exalted by slowly changing who we fundamentally are over time with God’s help”, how would you answer the following question? If Paul died the day after he had his vision on the way to Damascus, could he still go to the CK? I would think you would say yes, but it sounds like you think he would have to spend a lifetime of doing good works to get there. If not, then I do not understand your point.

You are correct, I have conflated salvation and exaltation. If one believes that there will be progress from a lower kingdom to a higher one, as I do, then there really is no problem. But that could be where we are disagreeing, sorry if that is the problem.

“The problem here is that this sentence assumes that our hearts and our puny works can be separated. They can’t be. What we do and think and say is a reflection of our hearts. As Jesus said, “by their fruits ye shall know them”. ” That is true, but my point was, that without a change of heart, doing things for the right reason, then our works seem to be no more than filthy rags to the Lord. A puny jump of three feet high, when what the Lord wants is perfection, not on our own, but in and through Christ.

I appreciate the heartfelt expression of your feelings in your last comment. My problem with it is that you seem to be misunderstanding some fundamental doctrines that have been restored through modern prophets.

First of all, your “jumping to the moon” analogy is really misunderstanding the nature of exaltation. You are treating exaltation like a thing we get if we do some specified things in the analogy. That is just wrong in my opinion. We become exalted by slowly changing who we fundamentally are over time with God’s help. We become celestial individuals with God’s help. We don’t just get exaltation or celestial status. See my parable of the pianist on that subject.

Second, I totally agree with you that salvation is not earned or merited. The problem is that you are conflating salvation with exaltation and for the purposes of this thread we are treating them as very different things.

You said: What God wants, is not our puny works, but our hearts.

The problem here is that this sentence assumes that our hearts and our puny works can be separated. They can’t be. What we do and think and say is a reflection of our hearts. As Jesus said, “by their fruits ye shall know them”.

This issue of “earning” is a clear one. I think it unarguable that Calvinistic Evangelicals and Mormons disagree over the nature of works. There’s no getting around that. To say that eternal life is a gift requires unpacking how Mormons feel we obtain eternal life. Once one gets into the nitty gritty there are huge differences with our Evangelical friends.

I should note, of course, that many (most?) Christians disagree with the Evangelicals here to. So let’s be careful about conflating Christian and Evangelical. And of course many Evangelicals aren’t that Calvinistic, although as I said Calvinism has, the past decade or two, come to dominate the movement from what I can see.

If the requirements to enter heaven are perfection, and they are, then it could work like this.

Instead of perfection, lets say that God requires us to be able to jump as high as the moon to enter heaven. And lets say that some of you can jump three feet high flat footed, and I can only jump two feet high. Does your three foot high jump meet God’s requirements? Can you say that because you did so well, you have earned your way to heaven, and that I, with my little meager jump, was not enough to get me there? I think all of the answers are self-evident.

Clark and others are correct, it is *mostly* about words and how we use them differently. I have come to believe it is only right that we as LDS at least try and get along with other Christians.

I am a construction worker, and as such have a language that is not appropriate in all situations. I consciously choose to not use certain words around people I know will take offense by those words. I have found that most Christians take offense if I use the word earn in relation to salvation. I have made a decision not to use that word around them. In doing so, I find that I do not use that word at all any more when talking about salvation regardless to whom I am talking to. Is that a bad thing?

I would hope Aaron would agree with this. If not, that is okay. There are times I am willing to drive stakes into solid rock with certain positions. The following will be one of them. If this is not good enough with him and others, so be it.

What God wants, is not our puny works, but our hearts. One can work their self to death and never get to heaven. Or one can give a widows mite and be sufficient to gain Eternal Life. It is all about faith in Christ, a change of heart, and then spending the rest of your life trying to share the gospel with others. In other words, doing things for the right reasons.

No one, not even evangelicals believe one can do nothing with their saved condition and expect that they will see God. A change of heart will cause one to work as never before, but for the right reasons. The best and most succinct way of explaining this was said by Nibly. “Work we must, but the lunch is free.” That is how I see this issue.

Now on the one hand clearly this is probably the most basic divide between Mormons and Evangelicals. The only things that probably are a bigger disagreement are creation ex nihilo and the nature of the ousia of God.

However the way the discussion has gone it really has seemed more about the meaning of merit.

Surely as many have said there’s not a univocal way to talk about this.

From what I gather some Mormons here and yourself are in disagreement on the role of merit/earning in receiving eternal life.

Not really. Once it is made clear that this “merit/earning” is taking place in a covenant relationship with Christ, whereby His merits are our merits, and we are one with God, most Mormons agree with Geoff (including myself).