<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: Is Work for the Dead Irrational?</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2007/02/is-work-for-the-dead-irrational/335/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2007/02/is-work-for-the-dead-irrational/335/</link>
	<description>Mormon Musings by yer ol' pals</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Fri, 10 Feb 2012 02:02:11 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1</generator>
	<item>
		<title>By: Blake</title>
		<link>http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2007/02/is-work-for-the-dead-irrational/335/comment-page-1/#comment-59589</link>
		<dc:creator>Blake</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Feb 2007 22:26:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2007/02/is-work-for-the-dead-irrational/335/#comment-59589</guid>
		<description>Todd: the fact that I love my son before he loves me doesn&#039;t entail that it is a different kind of love, much less that I am a different species from my son! It is true that God makes the first move to free us of our self-deceptive rejection of relationship, but it doesn&#039;t at all entail that our love is different in kind. Our love too can be spontaneous and self-generated. Indeed, it my were generated by another, then it isn&#039;t really my love it seems to me. That is one of the big differences between the LDS view of free will and the Protestant emphasis on grace alone which we are not free to reject and we don&#039;t choose to accept. I suggest that there is no love in such a relationship because love necessarily entails that the lover must be left free to say &quot;no&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Todd: the fact that I love my son before he loves me doesn&#8217;t entail that it is a different kind of love, much less that I am a different species from my son! It is true that God makes the first move to free us of our self-deceptive rejection of relationship, but it doesn&#8217;t at all entail that our love is different in kind. Our love too can be spontaneous and self-generated. Indeed, it my were generated by another, then it isn&#8217;t really my love it seems to me. That is one of the big differences between the LDS view of free will and the Protestant emphasis on grace alone which we are not free to reject and we don&#8217;t choose to accept. I suggest that there is no love in such a relationship because love necessarily entails that the lover must be left free to say &#8220;no&#8221;.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Todd Wood</title>
		<link>http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2007/02/is-work-for-the-dead-irrational/335/comment-page-1/#comment-59549</link>
		<dc:creator>Todd Wood</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Feb 2007 17:53:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2007/02/is-work-for-the-dead-irrational/335/#comment-59549</guid>
		<description>Blake, is God&#039;s agape and our agape of the same species?  God&#039;s agape is spontaneous and self-generated.  Our agape is responsive.  We love him because He first loved us.

If I am going to love like Christ, it can only be His love &lt;em&gt;through&lt;/em&gt; me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Blake, is God&#8217;s agape and our agape of the same species?  God&#8217;s agape is spontaneous and self-generated.  Our agape is responsive.  We love him because He first loved us.</p>
<p>If I am going to love like Christ, it can only be His love <em>through</em> me.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Blake</title>
		<link>http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2007/02/is-work-for-the-dead-irrational/335/comment-page-1/#comment-59547</link>
		<dc:creator>Blake</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Feb 2007 17:43:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2007/02/is-work-for-the-dead-irrational/335/#comment-59547</guid>
		<description>Todd: You might want to read John 17 where the essence of the exaltation promised to Jesus is promised to his disciples -- to the extent they are one in just the same way that the Father and Son are one. That entails also that they are not saved alone. As for the imputation of righteousness, I don&#039;t believe that such a view is remotely scriptural and it is incoherent. You might want to look at chs. 9 and 10 of my 2nd vol. where I explain why imputation of righteousness is internally incoherent. As for the inability to love, you might want to look at Jesus&#039;s command to love one another as he has loved us. Isn&#039;t that the essence of his message -- which you somehow deem to be impossible?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Todd: You might want to read John 17 where the essence of the exaltation promised to Jesus is promised to his disciples &#8212; to the extent they are one in just the same way that the Father and Son are one. That entails also that they are not saved alone. As for the imputation of righteousness, I don&#8217;t believe that such a view is remotely scriptural and it is incoherent. You might want to look at chs. 9 and 10 of my 2nd vol. where I explain why imputation of righteousness is internally incoherent. As for the inability to love, you might want to look at Jesus&#8217;s command to love one another as he has loved us. Isn&#8217;t that the essence of his message &#8212; which you somehow deem to be impossible?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Todd Wood</title>
		<link>http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2007/02/is-work-for-the-dead-irrational/335/comment-page-1/#comment-59546</link>
		<dc:creator>Todd Wood</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Feb 2007 17:36:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2007/02/is-work-for-the-dead-irrational/335/#comment-59546</guid>
		<description>Brake:  &lt;em&gt;Compared to God, you are like a dog in your comprehension&lt;/em&gt;.

Wow.  I will remember this quote, Blake.  This is me.  And I believe that it is because I am of an altogether different species than God (please see my engagement with some of your writings &lt;a href=&quot;http://heartissuesforlds.wordpress.com/2007/02/18/blake-t-ostler-on-the-writings-of-john/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;).

Concerning your repudiation of individual salvation, I agree.  In John 3, I see the direct involvement of all three members of the Trinity.  But I don&#039;t see how any of the apostles were instrumental, yea even necessary in an absolute sense for the imputation of righteousness to others by efficacious grace.

To thrust man into some kind of community role in the work of salvation is to unfairly demand of them an unconditional love that they are simply unable to produce.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Brake:  <em>Compared to God, you are like a dog in your comprehension</em>.</p>
<p>Wow.  I will remember this quote, Blake.  This is me.  And I believe that it is because I am of an altogether different species than God (please see my engagement with some of your writings <a href="http://heartissuesforlds.wordpress.com/2007/02/18/blake-t-ostler-on-the-writings-of-john/" rel="nofollow">here</a>).</p>
<p>Concerning your repudiation of individual salvation, I agree.  In John 3, I see the direct involvement of all three members of the Trinity.  But I don&#8217;t see how any of the apostles were instrumental, yea even necessary in an absolute sense for the imputation of righteousness to others by efficacious grace.</p>
<p>To thrust man into some kind of community role in the work of salvation is to unfairly demand of them an unconditional love that they are simply unable to produce.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Blake</title>
		<link>http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2007/02/is-work-for-the-dead-irrational/335/comment-page-1/#comment-59272</link>
		<dc:creator>Blake</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 Feb 2007 20:19:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2007/02/is-work-for-the-dead-irrational/335/#comment-59272</guid>
		<description>Raymond: You don&#039;t get it. Compared to God, you are like a dog in your comprehension. He can ask us to do things we don&#039;t fully understand. I suspect that your ad hominem here of &quot;absurdities and irrationalities&quot; needs to be demonstrated and not asserted.

Second, what work for the dead presupposes is that our individual exaltation is integrally related to the salvation and exaltation of all others -- thus &quot;individual salvation&quot; is an oxymormon. That happens to be true. What is at issue is the relationships we have. Work for the dead is the recognition and ritualization of that simple fact. That is why I stated that salvation all alone in heaven would be hell. Work for the dead is a way of recognizing that our salvation is never done individually or alone and that our efforts to enter into relationship requires us to recognize that such relationships must be formed beginning in the here and now. You may see it differently, but that is of little moment.

Finally, your statement &quot;those who have no connnection to the deceased&quot; is precisely the assumption that work for the dead challenges since it gives us some connection to the deceases. It is precisely the fact that such work creates connections where there was not one previously that the work takes on its meaning of love. So I suggest that your assertion that it depends on such a presupposition of no connection is false.

So here is my challenge: explain how we could be saved all alone if salvation consists in being in relationship with others -- all others who are willing to be in such a relationship? Salvation in heaven all alone is hell. We can remedy that by seeking to enter into relationship by offering a gift of love by our service here.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Raymond: You don&#8217;t get it. Compared to God, you are like a dog in your comprehension. He can ask us to do things we don&#8217;t fully understand. I suspect that your ad hominem here of &#8220;absurdities and irrationalities&#8221; needs to be demonstrated and not asserted.</p>
<p>Second, what work for the dead presupposes is that our individual exaltation is integrally related to the salvation and exaltation of all others &#8212; thus &#8220;individual salvation&#8221; is an oxymormon. That happens to be true. What is at issue is the relationships we have. Work for the dead is the recognition and ritualization of that simple fact. That is why I stated that salvation all alone in heaven would be hell. Work for the dead is a way of recognizing that our salvation is never done individually or alone and that our efforts to enter into relationship requires us to recognize that such relationships must be formed beginning in the here and now. You may see it differently, but that is of little moment.</p>
<p>Finally, your statement &#8220;those who have no connnection to the deceased&#8221; is precisely the assumption that work for the dead challenges since it gives us some connection to the deceases. It is precisely the fact that such work creates connections where there was not one previously that the work takes on its meaning of love. So I suggest that your assertion that it depends on such a presupposition of no connection is false.</p>
<p>So here is my challenge: explain how we could be saved all alone if salvation consists in being in relationship with others &#8212; all others who are willing to be in such a relationship? Salvation in heaven all alone is hell. We can remedy that by seeking to enter into relationship by offering a gift of love by our service here.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Raymond</title>
		<link>http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2007/02/is-work-for-the-dead-irrational/335/comment-page-1/#comment-59065</link>
		<dc:creator>Raymond</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 Feb 2007 05:56:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2007/02/is-work-for-the-dead-irrational/335/#comment-59065</guid>
		<description>Blake

The dog cannot comprehend the shot, but man can, and should, comprehend the absurdities and irrationalities of its own conjurings.  

Taking the sacrament is a personal witness unto Christ, and an expression of worship and love for the Redeemer - a relationship between the worshiper and God.

Prayer is a communication between an individual and God.  Sometimes things are asked for, and third parties invoked, but it is essentially a personal dialogue.

You can call Temple work for dead people &quot;gift-giving&quot;, but it pre-supposes that a ritual done off a computerized list by those who have no connection to the deceased is required for third-party souls to be eternally saved in the afterlife. 

[Edited]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Blake</p>
<p>The dog cannot comprehend the shot, but man can, and should, comprehend the absurdities and irrationalities of its own conjurings.  </p>
<p>Taking the sacrament is a personal witness unto Christ, and an expression of worship and love for the Redeemer &#8211; a relationship between the worshiper and God.</p>
<p>Prayer is a communication between an individual and God.  Sometimes things are asked for, and third parties invoked, but it is essentially a personal dialogue.</p>
<p>You can call Temple work for dead people &#8220;gift-giving&#8221;, but it pre-supposes that a ritual done off a computerized list by those who have no connection to the deceased is required for third-party souls to be eternally saved in the afterlife. </p>
<p>[Edited]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Blake</title>
		<link>http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2007/02/is-work-for-the-dead-irrational/335/comment-page-1/#comment-59060</link>
		<dc:creator>Blake</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 Feb 2007 05:27:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2007/02/is-work-for-the-dead-irrational/335/#comment-59060</guid>
		<description>Raymond: Don&#039;t be flippant wipper snapper. {grin} If the answer is &quot;yes&quot; it is because the scriptures are clear that baptism is a condition for salvation established by God -- and the scriptural support is ample. What makes that strange? It is no stranger than making an experiential participation a basis for understanding. Further, God ought to seem strange in some respects in the same way that the master&#039;s giving the dog a shot to stop rabies would seem strange to the dog who knows only that his master is causing him pain for reasons he can&#039;t grasp.  

If the answer is no, why would that make a religion strange? If the entire purpose of the religion is to teach us how to love one another, and ordinances for the dead are the best way to teach us pure love, then it seems to be the opposite of strange. It seems sublime.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Raymond: Don&#8217;t be flippant wipper snapper. {grin} If the answer is &#8220;yes&#8221; it is because the scriptures are clear that baptism is a condition for salvation established by God &#8212; and the scriptural support is ample. What makes that strange? It is no stranger than making an experiential participation a basis for understanding. Further, God ought to seem strange in some respects in the same way that the master&#8217;s giving the dog a shot to stop rabies would seem strange to the dog who knows only that his master is causing him pain for reasons he can&#8217;t grasp.  </p>
<p>If the answer is no, why would that make a religion strange? If the entire purpose of the religion is to teach us how to love one another, and ordinances for the dead are the best way to teach us pure love, then it seems to be the opposite of strange. It seems sublime.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Raymond</title>
		<link>http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2007/02/is-work-for-the-dead-irrational/335/comment-page-1/#comment-59027</link>
		<dc:creator>Raymond</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 Feb 2007 02:59:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2007/02/is-work-for-the-dead-irrational/335/#comment-59027</guid>
		<description>&quot;Does anyone believe that if we fail to do work for the dead then others will be denied salvation and/or exaltation through no fault of their own?&quot;

Did I miss something in your post, or did you answer your question?

If the answer is &quot;yes&quot;, then we have one very strange God.

If the answer is &quot;no&quot;, then we have one very strange religion.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Does anyone believe that if we fail to do work for the dead then others will be denied salvation and/or exaltation through no fault of their own?&#8221;</p>
<p>Did I miss something in your post, or did you answer your question?</p>
<p>If the answer is &#8220;yes&#8221;, then we have one very strange God.</p>
<p>If the answer is &#8220;no&#8221;, then we have one very strange religion.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Blake</title>
		<link>http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2007/02/is-work-for-the-dead-irrational/335/comment-page-1/#comment-58505</link>
		<dc:creator>Blake</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Feb 2007 01:14:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2007/02/is-work-for-the-dead-irrational/335/#comment-58505</guid>
		<description>I want to clarify a comment in my post made purposefully: &quot;In one sense, work for the dead is non-sense. Does anyone believe that if we fail to do work for the dead then others will be denied salvation and/or exaltation through no fault of their own?&quot;

The demand that we must be baptized to be saved, as section 76 clearly states and Jon 3:16 less clarly so, is not based on logic or common sense. Either God has commanded baptism as the mode to enter into a covenant relationship with him or he hasn&#039;t. That isn&#039;t something proven by logic or moral considerations. It is simply a question of fact: has God in fact so commanded? If one believes that God has so commanded, and one seeks a relationship with God, then baptism for the dead makes eminent sense and doing it as a means of opening the doors to salvation is a work of love par excellence. But for one who doesn&#039;t see that or believe that, it is still understandable that perhaps we do work for the dead because in this way we express a pure love. So this observation is meant to be an expression that even a non-LDS may grasp. They may be led to see that our efforts are neither irrational nor an affront, but an offering of love to them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I want to clarify a comment in my post made purposefully: &#8220;In one sense, work for the dead is non-sense. Does anyone believe that if we fail to do work for the dead then others will be denied salvation and/or exaltation through no fault of their own?&#8221;</p>
<p>The demand that we must be baptized to be saved, as section 76 clearly states and Jon 3:16 less clarly so, is not based on logic or common sense. Either God has commanded baptism as the mode to enter into a covenant relationship with him or he hasn&#8217;t. That isn&#8217;t something proven by logic or moral considerations. It is simply a question of fact: has God in fact so commanded? If one believes that God has so commanded, and one seeks a relationship with God, then baptism for the dead makes eminent sense and doing it as a means of opening the doors to salvation is a work of love par excellence. But for one who doesn&#8217;t see that or believe that, it is still understandable that perhaps we do work for the dead because in this way we express a pure love. So this observation is meant to be an expression that even a non-LDS may grasp. They may be led to see that our efforts are neither irrational nor an affront, but an offering of love to them.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Jack</title>
		<link>http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2007/02/is-work-for-the-dead-irrational/335/comment-page-1/#comment-58464</link>
		<dc:creator>Jack</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Feb 2007 23:47:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2007/02/is-work-for-the-dead-irrational/335/#comment-58464</guid>
		<description>&quot;Why the guilt? Only because of the call of the Other to us in the first place.&quot;

The problem I have with this is that, unless we rein in our fantastical theology a bit, one is made to feel as if mortal life were in a giant fish bowl. How in the world do we learn to offer an offering in righteousness a la Kierkegaard with all our ancestors eyes on us?

I find the idea terrifying.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Why the guilt? Only because of the call of the Other to us in the first place.&#8221;</p>
<p>The problem I have with this is that, unless we rein in our fantastical theology a bit, one is made to feel as if mortal life were in a giant fish bowl. How in the world do we learn to offer an offering in righteousness a la Kierkegaard with all our ancestors eyes on us?</p>
<p>I find the idea terrifying.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>

<!-- Performance optimized by W3 Total Cache. Learn more: http://www.w3-edge.com/wordpress-plugins/

Minified using disk: basic
Page Caching using disk: enhanced (Requested URI is rejected)
Database Caching using disk: basic
Object Caching 316/317 objects using disk: basic

Served from: www.newcoolthang.com @ 2012-02-10 14:01:20 -->
