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	<title>Comments on: What exactly do our scriptures mean when they say &#8220;salvation&#8221;?</title>
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	<link>http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2006/07/salvation-means/262/</link>
	<description>Mormon Musings by yer ol' pals</description>
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		<title>By: Dave C.</title>
		<link>http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2006/07/salvation-means/262/comment-page-3/#comment-21690</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave C.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Jul 2006 18:32:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2006/07/what-exactly-do-our-scriputres-mean-when-they-say-salvation/262/#comment-21690</guid>
		<description>Jacob,
Guilty as charged.  I haven&#039;t read Bro. Ostler, only the hearsay. (and precious little of that)  I&#039;m feeling rather sheepish....  I will do my due diligence next time.  Sorry about the YELLING.  I&#039;m not upset... just not very good at modulating I guess.  Thanks for reading my rambling comment.     </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jacob,<br />
Guilty as charged.  I haven&#8217;t read Bro. Ostler, only the hearsay. (and precious little of that)  I&#8217;m feeling rather sheepish&#8230;.  I will do my due diligence next time.  Sorry about the YELLING.  I&#8217;m not upset&#8230; just not very good at modulating I guess.  Thanks for reading my rambling comment.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Jacob</title>
		<link>http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2006/07/salvation-means/262/comment-page-3/#comment-21612</link>
		<dc:creator>Jacob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Jul 2006 23:18:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2006/07/what-exactly-do-our-scriputres-mean-when-they-say-salvation/262/#comment-21612</guid>
		<description>Dave,

You make several good points.  However, you are way off when you accuse Blake Ostler of pantheism.  You obviously haven&#039;t read too much of his work or you haven&#039;t understood it if you make that mistake.

By the way, WHY ARE YOU YELLING ALL THE TIME?  Are you upset about something?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dave,</p>
<p>You make several good points.  However, you are way off when you accuse Blake Ostler of pantheism.  You obviously haven&#8217;t read too much of his work or you haven&#8217;t understood it if you make that mistake.</p>
<p>By the way, WHY ARE YOU YELLING ALL THE TIME?  Are you upset about something?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Dave Cluff</title>
		<link>http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2006/07/salvation-means/262/comment-page-3/#comment-21611</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave Cluff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Jul 2006 22:23:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2006/07/what-exactly-do-our-scriputres-mean-when-they-say-salvation/262/#comment-21611</guid>
		<description>Who Am I?  Why Am I Here?  Where Am I Going?  How does &quot;Mormonism&quot; answer those questions for us?  And how do those answers differ significantly from the answers provided by pre-restoration doctrine.  The BOM doesn&#039;t tell us much about the pre-mortal WHO YOU ARE.  The Bible only hints at it but doesn&#039;t explain much about what it means to suggest that God is our Father; The Father of Spirits.
Restoration doctrine seems to much more clearly drive home the notion that we are the children of God, in that we are His spiritual offspring.  The concept rings true and is particularly comely in that it makes us pretty special.  But just how special, depends on who God is.  God, we are told, (post-restoration) is a Being, like us except exalted.  He was once like us but became God over time.  (For whatever reasons, we have those among us who balk at the notion that our &quot;Father-in-Heaven&quot; BECAME GOD.  I suspect that it stems from the human nature to hold on to old &quot;doctrines&quot; and mythologies since they have so many quotable sources and apologists.  But become God He did and BECOMING LIKE HIM is what post-restoration doctrine is all about.  Too many including apparently Bro. Ostler, have incorrectly ascribed to Heavenly Father, the attributes of NATURE.  But our Heavenly Father isn&#039;t Nature, He&#039;s a Being in Nature.  He didn&#039;t create Nature, He exists in it.  He didn&#039;t create Natural Law, He exists in it and abides by it. Post-restoration revelation clarifies that NOTHING COMES FROM NOTHING.  MATTER CAN NOT BE CREATED OR DESTROYED.  THINGS...NATURE HAS ALWAYS BEEN...BEINGS HAVE ALWAYS EXISTED IN NATURE AND AS A PART OF NATURE.  THERE IS NO ULTIMATE BEGINNING TO NATURE OR ULTIMATE BEING IN NATURE BOTH HAVE ALWAYS BEEN.  Our Father in Heaven is one of those beings and so are we.  HE HAS ALWAYS EXISTED IN ONE FORM OR ANOTHER AND SO HAVE WE.) THERE IS NO CONUNDRUM IN THIS.  FOREVER IS FOREVER...IN BOTH DIRECTIONS...NATURE HAS ALWAYS BEEN, NATURE WILL ALWAYS BE...HOW COULD IT BE OTHERWISE?  IT JUST IS!  THERE HAS ALWAYS BEEN AN ENDLESS STREAM OF BEING AND BEINGS IN ENDLESS VARIETY AND IN ENDLESS STAGES OF DEVELOPMENT...IF WE ARE TO ACCEPT ENDLESS PROGRESSION, WE NEED NOT ALSO ACCEPT AN ENDLESS &quot;REGRESSION&quot; BUT WE SHOULD ACKNOWLEDGE AN ENDLESS HISTORY OF PROGRESSION AND BEING.

In His exalted state, God has the ability to procreate.  When He and   His eternal mate procreate, They have spirit children.  According to post-restoration information, we are the spirit children of heavenly parents.  Our parents are Gods.  Post-restoration doctrine seems to suggest that before we were &quot;born&quot; as spirit children we existed in some other way as &quot;intelligences&quot;. In any event if we are the children of Gods, we have their NATURE.  AT THE SPIRITUAL CORE WE HAVE THEIR DNA.  WE ARE THEM,... AS MUCH SO AND MORE SO THAN ANY ACORN IS AN OAK TREE.  BUT UNLIKE EARTHLY SEED AND TREE, OUR SPIRITS ARE ETERNAL.

Pre-restoration our other Christian brothers and sisters were left to hold to some second rate notion that we are merely &quot;creations&quot; of the ONE GOD who, because He likes us so much, wants us to eventually surround His throne and worship Him forever.  But only if our sins have been properly atoned for. 
To make this atonement happen, Classic Christian doctrine informs He was willing to come down to earth as His other self (JESUS) and atone for us in some curiously bizzare whipping  boy excersie in which Jesus would take our whipping for us if we would just accept Him as the only true whipping boy.  At which point Jesus would suffer to satisfy the &quot;demands&quot; of some amorphic principle called justice who is in some ridiculously arbitrary way &quot;satisfied&quot; by allowing a pure and innocent being to suffer in the stead of the guilty.

Oh and by the way, under the OLD Doctrine, those who failed to repent and accept Jesus as the only true whipping boy, would be cast down to HELL.  (Interestingly enough, pre-19th Section of the D&amp;C, WE USED TO  BE TAUGHT THE VERY SAME CONCEPT, INSOFARAS HELL IS CONCERNED.  THAT IS WE WERE TAUGHT THAT THE UNREPENTANT GO TO SOME ENDLESS LAKE OF FIRE AND ARE PUNISHED ETERNALLY.  It was only after the Prophet JS received the 19th Sec. that we were &quot;clued in&quot; to the &quot;mystery of Godliness&quot; and were let off the really really bad HELL hook.  Prior to that in both the Bible and the BOM God was teaching us that we would burn in Hell endlessly if we did not repent.  In the 19th Sec. the Lord explains that He used to teach a forever Hell because he wanted that concept to &quot;work upon&quot; our hearts.)

Post-restoration, we have the &quot;new&quot; doctrine which teaches us that we are the literal children of a loving God who loves us like any loving Father would love his children.  For some reason, however, we are now taught that even though most of us don&#039;t go to Hell and burn forever, if we don&#039;t repent &quot;well enough&#039; while we are here, we will have to suffer until we do repent and then, all but the &quot;best&quot; of us will go to some &quot;lesser&quot; place and yearn forever.  (I personally think we will one day find that just like the &quot;old&quot; doctrine about Hell, this &quot;newer&quot; doctrine of a kinder, friendlier Hell where we only yearn, instead of burn, is also merely a concept taught so that it will &quot;work upon our hearts&quot;. The Lord knows many of us will want to be just as good as we can be as mortals so we can avoid the &quot;lesser&quot; &quot;rewards&quot;.  Having this concept in the heads of some balances out the crazies on the other end of the spectrum who don&#039;t give a _____.  But this mortality the Lord has designed for us was never about losing His Children. In the final analysis, our Eternal Father has endless time and resources (CHIEF AMONG THEM THE ATONING SACRIFICE OF JESUS CHRIST) to &quot;help&quot; us become like Him and since we are HIS ETERNAL SEED, WE ARE ALL CAPABLE OF MAKING THAT HAPPEN...ALL OF US...TOGETHER.

Something we don&#039;t spend alot of time talking about when exploring the Who Am I question, is what happens to a Spirit Child of God who has an opportunity to live in His presence for a few billion years. My guess is, if we are His children and have His capacity, we might have learned a thing or two.  Yet, because we have this mortal viel over our eyes we don&#039;t have all that knowledge and experience.  I suspect that a Being like God living in a Celestial environment for eons of time is going to be a incredibly sophisticated in his or her vocabulary, reasoning, perspective, opinions, feelings etc. Certainly significantly more so than any purely mortal man could ever be. So truth is...FROM AN ETERNAL PERSPECTIVE WE REALLY DON&#039;T HAVE MUCH OF A CLUE AS TO WHO WE REALLY ARE. KNOWING ALL THAT WOULD INTERFERE WITH HAVING THIS MORTAL EXPERIENCE WHICH THE LORD HAS &quot;CREATED&quot; AND &quot;CONTROLS&quot; FOR US.       

WHY ARE WE HERE?  The post-restoration &quot;gospel&quot; on the subject is that we are here on AN earth that our Father made for us as part of a test and to gain a physical body.  How we score on the test supposedly determines our eternal reward.  This makes mortal life pretty darn important.  I like to think the 19th Section gives us a reason to HOPE that, like the &quot;old&quot; doctrine of Hell, this &quot;newer&quot; doctrine that says we are here to EARN OUR WAY IN TO SOME DEGREE OF GLORY, will be shown to have only been taught as a way of &quot;working upon our hearts.&quot;  I suspect not ENOUGH of us would &quot;be good&quot; if we weren&#039;t motivated by the &quot;quest&quot; for some higher degree of glory.  AND WE NEED TO HAVE A CONTINGENT OF DO GOODERS MOTIVATED BY THE THINGS THAT FLIP THEIR MORTAL SWITCH TO BALANCE OUT THE DO BADDERS WHO ARE MOTIVATED BY THE THINGS THAT FLIP THEIR MORTAL SWITCH. IF NOT, WE WOULDN&#039;T BE HAVING MORTALITY.  BUT MORTALITY IS APPARENTLY WHAT WE NEED TO HAVE ALONG WITH ALL ITS PERSONALITIES, FLIPS AND SWITCHES.     

We are here to have a mortal experience. BUT every one of us is having one that is uniquely different. Through the miracle of the Lamb&#039;s Book of Life, we will all learn from the experience of the rest, and we will ascend TOGETHER.  I like to believe that our Father knew we would act like mortals and sin and that in this dynamic of mortality we would have every possible mix of experiences.  EVERYTHING IS HAPPENING AS IT SHOULD BE.  IF IT WERE NOT, WE WOULD NOT BE HAVING THE MORTAL EXPERIENCE THAT WAS INTENDED.

WHERE ARE WE GOING?  Under the &quot;newer&quot; post-restoration information, we are going to go wherever we DESERVE TO GO. And where we deserve to go is all about NOW...HOW GOOD WE ARE...WHAT WE EARN...IF WE&#039;RE GOOD ENOUGH, JESUS CAN HELP US IF WE&#039;RE NOT GOOD ENOUGH, WE ARE DOOMED TO AN ETERNITY OF YEARNING.  I like to think that the 19th Section opens up the possibility that the Lord has yet to reveal &quot;many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God&quot; and that these things will clarify that mortality is just one exciting step in the process of our BECOMING like our Father and that it was not designed to weed us out but rather to bring to pass our immortality and eternal life...ALL OF US TOGETHER...!

IN THE MEANTIME, IN THE NOW, THE LAWS OF NATURE CONTINUE TO OPERATE.  PUT YOUR HAND ON A HOT STOVE AND SUFFER THE CONSEQUENCES.  DIG A PIT FOR YOUR NEIGHBOR AND WATCH WHAT HAPPENS.  ALLOW CHARITY (THE ONLY PURE MOTIVATION) TO GOVERN YOUR LIFE AND REAP THE BENEFITS.  BUT GIVEN THE 19th SECTION, YOU DON&#039;T HAVE TO BE UNDER THE IMPRESSION THAT YOU REALLY ARE EARNING YOUR WAY TO HEAVEN...OR CONDEMNING YOURSELF TO ETERNAL THIRD CLASSNESS.  YOUR HAVING A MORTAL EXPERIENCE...WE ALL ARE...TOGETHER!            

  
     </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Who Am I?  Why Am I Here?  Where Am I Going?  How does &#8220;Mormonism&#8221; answer those questions for us?  And how do those answers differ significantly from the answers provided by pre-restoration doctrine.  The BOM doesn&#8217;t tell us much about the pre-mortal WHO YOU ARE.  The Bible only hints at it but doesn&#8217;t explain much about what it means to suggest that God is our Father; The Father of Spirits.<br />
Restoration doctrine seems to much more clearly drive home the notion that we are the children of God, in that we are His spiritual offspring.  The concept rings true and is particularly comely in that it makes us pretty special.  But just how special, depends on who God is.  God, we are told, (post-restoration) is a Being, like us except exalted.  He was once like us but became God over time.  (For whatever reasons, we have those among us who balk at the notion that our &#8220;Father-in-Heaven&#8221; BECAME GOD.  I suspect that it stems from the human nature to hold on to old &#8220;doctrines&#8221; and mythologies since they have so many quotable sources and apologists.  But become God He did and BECOMING LIKE HIM is what post-restoration doctrine is all about.  Too many including apparently Bro. Ostler, have incorrectly ascribed to Heavenly Father, the attributes of NATURE.  But our Heavenly Father isn&#8217;t Nature, He&#8217;s a Being in Nature.  He didn&#8217;t create Nature, He exists in it.  He didn&#8217;t create Natural Law, He exists in it and abides by it. Post-restoration revelation clarifies that NOTHING COMES FROM NOTHING.  MATTER CAN NOT BE CREATED OR DESTROYED.  THINGS&#8230;NATURE HAS ALWAYS BEEN&#8230;BEINGS HAVE ALWAYS EXISTED IN NATURE AND AS A PART OF NATURE.  THERE IS NO ULTIMATE BEGINNING TO NATURE OR ULTIMATE BEING IN NATURE BOTH HAVE ALWAYS BEEN.  Our Father in Heaven is one of those beings and so are we.  HE HAS ALWAYS EXISTED IN ONE FORM OR ANOTHER AND SO HAVE WE.) THERE IS NO CONUNDRUM IN THIS.  FOREVER IS FOREVER&#8230;IN BOTH DIRECTIONS&#8230;NATURE HAS ALWAYS BEEN, NATURE WILL ALWAYS BE&#8230;HOW COULD IT BE OTHERWISE?  IT JUST IS!  THERE HAS ALWAYS BEEN AN ENDLESS STREAM OF BEING AND BEINGS IN ENDLESS VARIETY AND IN ENDLESS STAGES OF DEVELOPMENT&#8230;IF WE ARE TO ACCEPT ENDLESS PROGRESSION, WE NEED NOT ALSO ACCEPT AN ENDLESS &#8220;REGRESSION&#8221; BUT WE SHOULD ACKNOWLEDGE AN ENDLESS HISTORY OF PROGRESSION AND BEING.</p>
<p>In His exalted state, God has the ability to procreate.  When He and   His eternal mate procreate, They have spirit children.  According to post-restoration information, we are the spirit children of heavenly parents.  Our parents are Gods.  Post-restoration doctrine seems to suggest that before we were &#8220;born&#8221; as spirit children we existed in some other way as &#8220;intelligences&#8221;. In any event if we are the children of Gods, we have their NATURE.  AT THE SPIRITUAL CORE WE HAVE THEIR DNA.  WE ARE THEM,&#8230; AS MUCH SO AND MORE SO THAN ANY ACORN IS AN OAK TREE.  BUT UNLIKE EARTHLY SEED AND TREE, OUR SPIRITS ARE ETERNAL.</p>
<p>Pre-restoration our other Christian brothers and sisters were left to hold to some second rate notion that we are merely &#8220;creations&#8221; of the ONE GOD who, because He likes us so much, wants us to eventually surround His throne and worship Him forever.  But only if our sins have been properly atoned for.<br />
To make this atonement happen, Classic Christian doctrine informs He was willing to come down to earth as His other self (JESUS) and atone for us in some curiously bizzare whipping  boy excersie in which Jesus would take our whipping for us if we would just accept Him as the only true whipping boy.  At which point Jesus would suffer to satisfy the &#8220;demands&#8221; of some amorphic principle called justice who is in some ridiculously arbitrary way &#8220;satisfied&#8221; by allowing a pure and innocent being to suffer in the stead of the guilty.</p>
<p>Oh and by the way, under the OLD Doctrine, those who failed to repent and accept Jesus as the only true whipping boy, would be cast down to HELL.  (Interestingly enough, pre-19th Section of the D&amp;C, WE USED TO  BE TAUGHT THE VERY SAME CONCEPT, INSOFARAS HELL IS CONCERNED.  THAT IS WE WERE TAUGHT THAT THE UNREPENTANT GO TO SOME ENDLESS LAKE OF FIRE AND ARE PUNISHED ETERNALLY.  It was only after the Prophet JS received the 19th Sec. that we were &#8220;clued in&#8221; to the &#8220;mystery of Godliness&#8221; and were let off the really really bad HELL hook.  Prior to that in both the Bible and the BOM God was teaching us that we would burn in Hell endlessly if we did not repent.  In the 19th Sec. the Lord explains that He used to teach a forever Hell because he wanted that concept to &#8220;work upon&#8221; our hearts.)</p>
<p>Post-restoration, we have the &#8220;new&#8221; doctrine which teaches us that we are the literal children of a loving God who loves us like any loving Father would love his children.  For some reason, however, we are now taught that even though most of us don&#8217;t go to Hell and burn forever, if we don&#8217;t repent &#8220;well enough&#8217; while we are here, we will have to suffer until we do repent and then, all but the &#8220;best&#8221; of us will go to some &#8220;lesser&#8221; place and yearn forever.  (I personally think we will one day find that just like the &#8220;old&#8221; doctrine about Hell, this &#8220;newer&#8221; doctrine of a kinder, friendlier Hell where we only yearn, instead of burn, is also merely a concept taught so that it will &#8220;work upon our hearts&#8221;. The Lord knows many of us will want to be just as good as we can be as mortals so we can avoid the &#8220;lesser&#8221; &#8220;rewards&#8221;.  Having this concept in the heads of some balances out the crazies on the other end of the spectrum who don&#8217;t give a _____.  But this mortality the Lord has designed for us was never about losing His Children. In the final analysis, our Eternal Father has endless time and resources (CHIEF AMONG THEM THE ATONING SACRIFICE OF JESUS CHRIST) to &#8220;help&#8221; us become like Him and since we are HIS ETERNAL SEED, WE ARE ALL CAPABLE OF MAKING THAT HAPPEN&#8230;ALL OF US&#8230;TOGETHER.</p>
<p>Something we don&#8217;t spend alot of time talking about when exploring the Who Am I question, is what happens to a Spirit Child of God who has an opportunity to live in His presence for a few billion years. My guess is, if we are His children and have His capacity, we might have learned a thing or two.  Yet, because we have this mortal viel over our eyes we don&#8217;t have all that knowledge and experience.  I suspect that a Being like God living in a Celestial environment for eons of time is going to be a incredibly sophisticated in his or her vocabulary, reasoning, perspective, opinions, feelings etc. Certainly significantly more so than any purely mortal man could ever be. So truth is&#8230;FROM AN ETERNAL PERSPECTIVE WE REALLY DON&#8217;T HAVE MUCH OF A CLUE AS TO WHO WE REALLY ARE. KNOWING ALL THAT WOULD INTERFERE WITH HAVING THIS MORTAL EXPERIENCE WHICH THE LORD HAS &#8220;CREATED&#8221; AND &#8220;CONTROLS&#8221; FOR US.       </p>
<p>WHY ARE WE HERE?  The post-restoration &#8220;gospel&#8221; on the subject is that we are here on AN earth that our Father made for us as part of a test and to gain a physical body.  How we score on the test supposedly determines our eternal reward.  This makes mortal life pretty darn important.  I like to think the 19th Section gives us a reason to HOPE that, like the &#8220;old&#8221; doctrine of Hell, this &#8220;newer&#8221; doctrine that says we are here to EARN OUR WAY IN TO SOME DEGREE OF GLORY, will be shown to have only been taught as a way of &#8220;working upon our hearts.&#8221;  I suspect not ENOUGH of us would &#8220;be good&#8221; if we weren&#8217;t motivated by the &#8220;quest&#8221; for some higher degree of glory.  AND WE NEED TO HAVE A CONTINGENT OF DO GOODERS MOTIVATED BY THE THINGS THAT FLIP THEIR MORTAL SWITCH TO BALANCE OUT THE DO BADDERS WHO ARE MOTIVATED BY THE THINGS THAT FLIP THEIR MORTAL SWITCH. IF NOT, WE WOULDN&#8217;T BE HAVING MORTALITY.  BUT MORTALITY IS APPARENTLY WHAT WE NEED TO HAVE ALONG WITH ALL ITS PERSONALITIES, FLIPS AND SWITCHES.     </p>
<p>We are here to have a mortal experience. BUT every one of us is having one that is uniquely different. Through the miracle of the Lamb&#8217;s Book of Life, we will all learn from the experience of the rest, and we will ascend TOGETHER.  I like to believe that our Father knew we would act like mortals and sin and that in this dynamic of mortality we would have every possible mix of experiences.  EVERYTHING IS HAPPENING AS IT SHOULD BE.  IF IT WERE NOT, WE WOULD NOT BE HAVING THE MORTAL EXPERIENCE THAT WAS INTENDED.</p>
<p>WHERE ARE WE GOING?  Under the &#8220;newer&#8221; post-restoration information, we are going to go wherever we DESERVE TO GO. And where we deserve to go is all about NOW&#8230;HOW GOOD WE ARE&#8230;WHAT WE EARN&#8230;IF WE&#8217;RE GOOD ENOUGH, JESUS CAN HELP US IF WE&#8217;RE NOT GOOD ENOUGH, WE ARE DOOMED TO AN ETERNITY OF YEARNING.  I like to think that the 19th Section opens up the possibility that the Lord has yet to reveal &#8220;many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God&#8221; and that these things will clarify that mortality is just one exciting step in the process of our BECOMING like our Father and that it was not designed to weed us out but rather to bring to pass our immortality and eternal life&#8230;ALL OF US TOGETHER&#8230;!</p>
<p>IN THE MEANTIME, IN THE NOW, THE LAWS OF NATURE CONTINUE TO OPERATE.  PUT YOUR HAND ON A HOT STOVE AND SUFFER THE CONSEQUENCES.  DIG A PIT FOR YOUR NEIGHBOR AND WATCH WHAT HAPPENS.  ALLOW CHARITY (THE ONLY PURE MOTIVATION) TO GOVERN YOUR LIFE AND REAP THE BENEFITS.  BUT GIVEN THE 19th SECTION, YOU DON&#8217;T HAVE TO BE UNDER THE IMPRESSION THAT YOU REALLY ARE EARNING YOUR WAY TO HEAVEN&#8230;OR CONDEMNING YOURSELF TO ETERNAL THIRD CLASSNESS.  YOUR HAVING A MORTAL EXPERIENCE&#8230;WE ALL ARE&#8230;TOGETHER!</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Mark Butler</title>
		<link>http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2006/07/salvation-means/262/comment-page-3/#comment-21330</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Butler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 Jul 2006 08:32:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2006/07/what-exactly-do-our-scriputres-mean-when-they-say-salvation/262/#comment-21330</guid>
		<description>It keeps zapping the underscores:

Try again &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.bereanpublishers.com/False_Doctrines/The_Story_of_Texas_Tech.htm&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It keeps zapping the underscores:</p>
<p>Try again <a href="http://www.bereanpublishers.com/False_Doctrines/The_Story_of_Texas_Tech.htm" rel="nofollow">here</a>.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Mark Butler</title>
		<link>http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2006/07/salvation-means/262/comment-page-3/#comment-21329</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Butler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 Jul 2006 08:29:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2006/07/what-exactly-do-our-scriputres-mean-when-they-say-salvation/262/#comment-21329</guid>
		<description>By the way, CEF, the particular perversion of Calvinism that has so characterized the South for the past fifty years or so (though somewhat on the wane now), is generally known as the doctrine of Eternal Security, or &quot;once saved always saved&quot;.

Reformed Calvinists generally regard this as a heresy, because the doctrine maintains that Christ will save all those who confess his name, regardless of their sins.  That is not what classical Calvinists mean by &quot;Perseverance of the Saints&quot; (the P in TULIP).  You see to a orthodox Calvinist, serious sin is evidence that one has not only not been saved, but that God probably has not elected that person to be saved in the first place, i.e. that the person is not actually a Saint after all. So the grand paradox of classical Calvinism is that people are always trying to prove, to themselves and others, that they are among the elect of God.

Where with the Eternal Security perversion of Calvinism, people confess Christ, and then many feel justified in continuing their life of sin. Actually that is not like Calvinism at all, in fact it is more like a 16th century perversion of Lutheranism - i.e. works are not necessary for salvation, so we can believe and then do whatever the h*ll we want - the doctrine of Antinomianism, something that Luther himself was vulnerable to from time to time.

This is a pretty interesting story about the practical effects of the doctrine of Eternal Security:

Carl Giordano, The Story of Texas Tech

&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.bereanpublishers.com/False_Doctrines/The_Story_of_Texas_Tech.htm&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://www.bereanpublishers.com/False_Doctrines/The_Story_of_Texas_Tech.htm&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>By the way, CEF, the particular perversion of Calvinism that has so characterized the South for the past fifty years or so (though somewhat on the wane now), is generally known as the doctrine of Eternal Security, or &#8220;once saved always saved&#8221;.</p>
<p>Reformed Calvinists generally regard this as a heresy, because the doctrine maintains that Christ will save all those who confess his name, regardless of their sins.  That is not what classical Calvinists mean by &#8220;Perseverance of the Saints&#8221; (the P in TULIP).  You see to a orthodox Calvinist, serious sin is evidence that one has not only not been saved, but that God probably has not elected that person to be saved in the first place, i.e. that the person is not actually a Saint after all. So the grand paradox of classical Calvinism is that people are always trying to prove, to themselves and others, that they are among the elect of God.</p>
<p>Where with the Eternal Security perversion of Calvinism, people confess Christ, and then many feel justified in continuing their life of sin. Actually that is not like Calvinism at all, in fact it is more like a 16th century perversion of Lutheranism &#8211; i.e. works are not necessary for salvation, so we can believe and then do whatever the h*ll we want &#8211; the doctrine of Antinomianism, something that Luther himself was vulnerable to from time to time.</p>
<p>This is a pretty interesting story about the practical effects of the doctrine of Eternal Security:</p>
<p>Carl Giordano, The Story of Texas Tech</p>
<p><a href="http://www.bereanpublishers.com/False_Doctrines/The_Story_of_Texas_Tech.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.bereanpublishers.com/False_Doctrines/The_Story_of_Texas_Tech.htm</a></p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Mark Butler</title>
		<link>http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2006/07/salvation-means/262/comment-page-3/#comment-21328</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Butler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 Jul 2006 08:02:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2006/07/what-exactly-do-our-scriputres-mean-when-they-say-salvation/262/#comment-21328</guid>
		<description>That should be (fixing the links):

John Wesley, &quot;The Question, ‘What Is an Arminian?&#039; Answered by a Lover of Free Grace&quot;
http://new.gbgm-umc.org/umhistory/wesley/arminian/
[this one is very short]

John Wesley, A Plain Account of Christian Perfection
As Believed and Taught by The Reverend Mr. John Wesley,
From the Year 1725, to the Year 1777.
http://wesley.nnu.edu/johnwesley/plainaccount/index.htm
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That should be (fixing the links):</p>
<p>John Wesley, &#8220;The Question, ‘What Is an Arminian?&#8217; Answered by a Lover of Free Grace&#8221;<br />
<a href="http://new.gbgm-umc.org/umhistory/wesley/arminian/" rel="nofollow">http://new.gbgm-umc.org/umhistory/wesley/arminian/</a><br />
[this one is very short]</p>
<p>John Wesley, A Plain Account of Christian Perfection<br />
As Believed and Taught by The Reverend Mr. John Wesley,<br />
From the Year 1725, to the Year 1777.<br />
<a href="http://wesley.nnu.edu/johnwesley/plainaccount/index.htm" rel="nofollow">http://wesley.nnu.edu/johnwesley/plainaccount/index.htm</a></p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Mark Butler</title>
		<link>http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2006/07/salvation-means/262/comment-page-3/#comment-21309</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Butler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 Jul 2006 04:34:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2006/07/what-exactly-do-our-scriputres-mean-when-they-say-salvation/262/#comment-21309</guid>
		<description>I suggest it is also a good idea to sample the work of John Calvin,
in his magnum opus, Institutes of the Christian Religion, to get a feel for the kind of man he was, and the detailed reasoning that lead him to espouse his most famous doctrines.  The four volume set is completely written in a persuasive, theological style, although he seems a bit hasty with some of his conclusions:

http://www.reformed.org/books/institutes/

I am not a fan of theological Calvinism (quite the contrary), but I am a fan of Calvin. It is worth noting that Calvin&#039;s own opinions are *slightly* softer and more similar to modern Calvinism than the peak of scholastic Calvinism, e.g. as represented in the Westminster Confession.

Isaac Watts (1674-1748) was a softer Calvinist who wrote the following nine hymns in our hymnal, which certainly give a taste for the doctrines Calvinist / Puritans emphasized the most (the majesty and soverignty of God, mostly):

O God, Our Help in Ages Past, 31
Praise Ye the Lord, 74
With All the Power of Hear and Tongue, 79

Great God, Attend While Zion Sings, 88
From All that Dwell below the Skies, 90
Come, We that Love the Lord, 119

Sweet is the Work, 147
He Died! The Great Redeemer Died, 192
Joy to the World, 201



Now for Methodism, which is very closely related species of Arminianism, I recommend the following two pamphlet sized works of John Wesley:

John Wesley, &quot;The Question, &#039;What Is an Arminian?&#039; Answered by a Lover of Free Grace&quot; 
http://gbgm-umc.org/umhistory/wesley/#Charles
[this one is very short]

John Wesley, A Plain Account of Christian Perfection
As Believed and Taught by The Reverend Mr. John Wesley,
From the Year 1725, to the Year 1777.
http://wesley.nnu.edu/john_wesley/plain_account/index.htm

Wesley stays away from technical disputes in this work, and teaches a doctrine of Christian Perfection which is very similar to what we advocate, to the degree we have to give him credit for having the inspiration to elucidate it in the first place.

To get an additional taste of the spirit of Methodism, it is worth examining the following six hymns in our hymnal written by John&#039;s brother Charles Wesley:

Rejoice the Lord is King!, 66
Jesus, Lover of My Soul, 102
Ye Simple Souls Who Stray, 118
Christ the Lord Is Risen Today, 200
Hark the Herald the Herald Angels Sing, 209
Come Let Us Anew, 217</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I suggest it is also a good idea to sample the work of John Calvin,<br />
in his magnum opus, Institutes of the Christian Religion, to get a feel for the kind of man he was, and the detailed reasoning that lead him to espouse his most famous doctrines.  The four volume set is completely written in a persuasive, theological style, although he seems a bit hasty with some of his conclusions:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.reformed.org/books/institutes/" rel="nofollow">http://www.reformed.org/books/institutes/</a></p>
<p>I am not a fan of theological Calvinism (quite the contrary), but I am a fan of Calvin. It is worth noting that Calvin&#8217;s own opinions are *slightly* softer and more similar to modern Calvinism than the peak of scholastic Calvinism, e.g. as represented in the Westminster Confession.</p>
<p>Isaac Watts (1674-1748) was a softer Calvinist who wrote the following nine hymns in our hymnal, which certainly give a taste for the doctrines Calvinist / Puritans emphasized the most (the majesty and soverignty of God, mostly):</p>
<p>O God, Our Help in Ages Past, 31<br />
Praise Ye the Lord, 74<br />
With All the Power of Hear and Tongue, 79</p>
<p>Great God, Attend While Zion Sings, 88<br />
From All that Dwell below the Skies, 90<br />
Come, We that Love the Lord, 119</p>
<p>Sweet is the Work, 147<br />
He Died! The Great Redeemer Died, 192<br />
Joy to the World, 201</p>
<p>Now for Methodism, which is very closely related species of Arminianism, I recommend the following two pamphlet sized works of John Wesley:</p>
<p>John Wesley, &#8220;The Question, &#8216;What Is an Arminian?&#8217; Answered by a Lover of Free Grace&#8221;<br />
<a href="http://gbgm-umc.org/umhistory/wesley/#Charles" rel="nofollow">http://gbgm-umc.org/umhistory/wesley/#Charles</a><br />
[this one is very short]</p>
<p>John Wesley, A Plain Account of Christian Perfection<br />
As Believed and Taught by The Reverend Mr. John Wesley,<br />
From the Year 1725, to the Year 1777.<br />
<a href="http://wesley.nnu.edu/john_wesley/plain_account/index.htm" rel="nofollow">http://wesley.nnu.edu/john_wesley/plain_account/index.htm</a></p>
<p>Wesley stays away from technical disputes in this work, and teaches a doctrine of Christian Perfection which is very similar to what we advocate, to the degree we have to give him credit for having the inspiration to elucidate it in the first place.</p>
<p>To get an additional taste of the spirit of Methodism, it is worth examining the following six hymns in our hymnal written by John&#8217;s brother Charles Wesley:</p>
<p>Rejoice the Lord is King!, 66<br />
Jesus, Lover of My Soul, 102<br />
Ye Simple Souls Who Stray, 118<br />
Christ the Lord Is Risen Today, 200<br />
Hark the Herald the Herald Angels Sing, 209<br />
Come Let Us Anew, 217</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Blake</title>
		<link>http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2006/07/salvation-means/262/comment-page-3/#comment-21281</link>
		<dc:creator>Blake</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Jul 2006 21:31:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2006/07/what-exactly-do-our-scriputres-mean-when-they-say-salvation/262/#comment-21281</guid>
		<description>I would actually suggest a read of the Works of Arminius. They are a good read, a good lesson in the history of ideas and a good defence of a view that was not merely under fire, but threatened the lives and jobs of all those who agreed with him. See here: http://www.godrules.net/library/arminius/arminius.htm</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would actually suggest a read of the Works of Arminius. They are a good read, a good lesson in the history of ideas and a good defence of a view that was not merely under fire, but threatened the lives and jobs of all those who agreed with him. See here: <a href="http://www.godrules.net/library/arminius/arminius.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.godrules.net/library/arminius/arminius.htm</a></p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Mark Butler</title>
		<link>http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2006/07/salvation-means/262/comment-page-3/#comment-21280</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Butler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Jul 2006 21:19:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2006/07/what-exactly-do-our-scriputres-mean-when-they-say-salvation/262/#comment-21280</guid>
		<description>If I may go on, listen to the original Arminian side of the story, from the Remonstrant Articles:

&lt;blockquote&gt;
Article 1 

That God, by an eternal and unchangeable purpose in Jesus Christ his Son, before the foundation of the world, hath determined, out of the fallen, sinful race of men, to save in Christ, for Christ&#039;s sake, and through Christ, those who, through the grace of the Holy Ghost, shall believe on this his son Jesus, and shall persevere in this faith and obedience of faith, through this grace, even to the end; and, on the other hand, to leave the incorrigible and unbelieving in sin and under wrath, and to condemn them as alienate from Christ, according to the word of the Gospel in John 3:36: &quot;He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him,&quot; and according to other passages of Scripture also.

Article 2 

That agreeably thereunto, Jesus Christ the Savior of the world, died for all men and for every man, so that he has obtained for them all, by his death on the cross, redemption and the forgiveness of sins; yet that no one actually enjoys this forgiveness of sins except the believer, according to the word of the Gospel of John 3:16, &quot;For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.&quot;  And in the First Epistle of John 2:2: &quot;And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.&quot;

Article 3 

That man has not saving grace of himself, nor of the energy of his free will, inasmuch as he, in the state of apostasy and sin, can of an by himself neither think, will, nor do any thing that is truly good (such as saving Faith eminently is); but that it is needful that he be born again of God in Christ, through his Holy Spirit, and renewed in understanding, inclination, or will, and all his powers, in order that he may rightly understand, think, will, and effect what is truly good, according to the Word of Christ, John 15:5, &quot;Without me ye can do nothing.&quot;

Article 4 

That this grace of God is the beginning, continuance, and accomplishment of all good, even to this extent, that the regenerate man himself, without prevenient or assisting, awakening, following and cooperative grace, can nei­ther think, will, nor do good, nor withstand any temptations to evil; so that all good deeds or movements, that can be conceived, must be ascribed to the grace of God in Christ. but respects the mode of the operation of this grace, it is not irresistible; inas­much as it is written con­cerning many, that they have resisted the Holy Ghost. Acts 7, and else­where in many places. 

Article 5 

That those who are in­corporated into Christ by true faith, and have thereby become partakers of his life-giving Spirit, have thereby full power to strive against Satan, sin, the world, and their own flesh, and to win the victory; it being well un­derstood that it is ever through the assisting grace of the Holy Ghost; and that Jesus Christ assists them through his Spirit in all temptations, extends to them his hand, and if only they are ready for the conflict, and desire his help, and are not inactive, keeps them from falling, so that they, by no craft or power of Satan, can be misled nor plucked out of Christ&#039;s hands, according to the Word of Christ, John 10:28: &quot;Neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.&quot; But whether they are capable, through negligence, of forsaking again the first beginning of their life in Christ, of again returning to this present evil world, of turning away from the holy doctrine which was deliv­ered them, of losing a good conscience, of be­coming devoid of grace, that must be more particularly determined out of the Holy Scripture, be­fore we ourselves can teach it with the full persuasion of our mind.

These Articles, thus set forth and taught, the Remonstrants deem agreeable to the Word of God, tending to edification, and, as regards this argument, sufficient for salvation, so that it is not necessary or edifying to rise higher or to descend deeper.
(The Five Arminian Articles, 1610) 
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Now this should sound roughly like LDS doctrine by now, although total inability is definitely not a formal doctrine of the Church.

Here is the Methodist equivalent, much abbreviated, 174 years later:

&lt;blockquote&gt;
I. OF FAITH IN THE HOLY TRINITY.

There is but one living and true God, everlasting, without body or parts, of infinite power, wisdom, and goodness; the Maker and Preserver of all things, visible and invisible. And in unity of this Godhead there are three persons, of one substance, power, and eternity, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost.

II. OF THE WORD, OR SON OF GOD, WHO WAS MADE VERY MAN.

The Son, who is the Word of the Father, the very and eternal God, of one substance with the Father, took man&#039;s nature in the womb of the blessed Virgin; so that two whole and perfect natures-that is to say, the Godhead and manhood-were joined together in one person, never to be divided, whereof is one Christ, very God and very man, who truly suffered, was crucified, dead and buried, to reconcile his Father to us, and to be a sacrifice, not only for original guilt, but also for the actual sins of men.
...
VII. OF ORIGINAL OR BIRTH SIN.

Original sin standeth not in the following of Adam (as the Pelagians do vainly talk), but it is the &lt;em&gt;corruption of the nature of every man, that naturally is engendered of the offspring of Adam&lt;/em&gt;, whereby man is very far gone from original righteousness, and of his own nature inclined to evil, and that continually.
 
VIII. OF FREE WILL.

The condition of man after the fall of Adam is such that &lt;em&gt;he can not turn and prepare himself, by his own natural strength and works, to faith and calling upon God&lt;/em&gt;; wherefore &lt;em&gt;we have no power to do good works&lt;/em&gt;, pleasant and acceptable to God, without the grace of God by Christ preventing us, that we may have a good will, and working with us, when we have that good will.

IX. OF THE JUSTIFICATION OF MAN.

We are accounted righteous before God only for the merit of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ by faith, and not for our own works or deservings. Wherefore, that we are justified by faith only is a most wholesome doctrine, and very full of comfort.

X. OF GOOD WORKS.

Although good works, which are the fruits of faith, and follow after justification, can not put away our sins, and endure the severity of God&#039;s judgments; yet are they pleasing and acceptable to God in Christ, and spring out of a true and lively faith, insomuch that by them a lively faith may be as evidently known as a tree is discerned by its fruit.
(Methodist Articles of Religion, 1784)
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Now the notable doctrine here, as with the original Arminians are the joint doctrines of total inability and total depravity - i.e. at least since the fall of Adam, not only can we do any good thing (even believe) without God&#039;s help, we cannot help but do evil, and that continually.

Now we do not believe in Original Sin, or transitive depravity, but there is certainly room in LDS doctrine for certain forms of natural depravity, even from before the fall.  I maintain that they have to be conditioned on free will, however.

Remember sin is defined as the transgression of the law - that means that while there are certainly forms of natural evil, the fulness of the definition of what is good and what is evil did not precede the authorship and ratification of the plan of salvation.

Nowadays it is evil to ignore God and his plans, but way back when one might simply say - I want do to it my way (i.e. be a law unto oneself).  That is fine, it just means that people are ultimately on their own, which is damnation, not because God is pushing them down, but rather because they are unwilling to let God lift them up, on the terms and conditions he has specified.  

That is my account of natural depravity - self-willed-ness (pride), no more, no less.  Anything worse is freely chosen - i.e. to do something that is definitely a natural evil (e.g. destruction of the work of others).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If I may go on, listen to the original Arminian side of the story, from the Remonstrant Articles:</p>
<blockquote><p>
Article 1 </p>
<p>That God, by an eternal and unchangeable purpose in Jesus Christ his Son, before the foundation of the world, hath determined, out of the fallen, sinful race of men, to save in Christ, for Christ&#8217;s sake, and through Christ, those who, through the grace of the Holy Ghost, shall believe on this his son Jesus, and shall persevere in this faith and obedience of faith, through this grace, even to the end; and, on the other hand, to leave the incorrigible and unbelieving in sin and under wrath, and to condemn them as alienate from Christ, according to the word of the Gospel in John 3:36: &#8220;He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him,&#8221; and according to other passages of Scripture also.</p>
<p>Article 2 </p>
<p>That agreeably thereunto, Jesus Christ the Savior of the world, died for all men and for every man, so that he has obtained for them all, by his death on the cross, redemption and the forgiveness of sins; yet that no one actually enjoys this forgiveness of sins except the believer, according to the word of the Gospel of John 3:16, &#8220;For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.&#8221;  And in the First Epistle of John 2:2: &#8220;And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.&#8221;</p>
<p>Article 3 </p>
<p>That man has not saving grace of himself, nor of the energy of his free will, inasmuch as he, in the state of apostasy and sin, can of an by himself neither think, will, nor do any thing that is truly good (such as saving Faith eminently is); but that it is needful that he be born again of God in Christ, through his Holy Spirit, and renewed in understanding, inclination, or will, and all his powers, in order that he may rightly understand, think, will, and effect what is truly good, according to the Word of Christ, John 15:5, &#8220;Without me ye can do nothing.&#8221;</p>
<p>Article 4 </p>
<p>That this grace of God is the beginning, continuance, and accomplishment of all good, even to this extent, that the regenerate man himself, without prevenient or assisting, awakening, following and cooperative grace, can nei­ther think, will, nor do good, nor withstand any temptations to evil; so that all good deeds or movements, that can be conceived, must be ascribed to the grace of God in Christ. but respects the mode of the operation of this grace, it is not irresistible; inas­much as it is written con­cerning many, that they have resisted the Holy Ghost. Acts 7, and else­where in many places. </p>
<p>Article 5 </p>
<p>That those who are in­corporated into Christ by true faith, and have thereby become partakers of his life-giving Spirit, have thereby full power to strive against Satan, sin, the world, and their own flesh, and to win the victory; it being well un­derstood that it is ever through the assisting grace of the Holy Ghost; and that Jesus Christ assists them through his Spirit in all temptations, extends to them his hand, and if only they are ready for the conflict, and desire his help, and are not inactive, keeps them from falling, so that they, by no craft or power of Satan, can be misled nor plucked out of Christ&#8217;s hands, according to the Word of Christ, John 10:28: &#8220;Neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.&#8221; But whether they are capable, through negligence, of forsaking again the first beginning of their life in Christ, of again returning to this present evil world, of turning away from the holy doctrine which was deliv­ered them, of losing a good conscience, of be­coming devoid of grace, that must be more particularly determined out of the Holy Scripture, be­fore we ourselves can teach it with the full persuasion of our mind.</p>
<p>These Articles, thus set forth and taught, the Remonstrants deem agreeable to the Word of God, tending to edification, and, as regards this argument, sufficient for salvation, so that it is not necessary or edifying to rise higher or to descend deeper.<br />
(The Five Arminian Articles, 1610)
</p></blockquote>
<p>Now this should sound roughly like LDS doctrine by now, although total inability is definitely not a formal doctrine of the Church.</p>
<p>Here is the Methodist equivalent, much abbreviated, 174 years later:</p>
<blockquote><p>
I. OF FAITH IN THE HOLY TRINITY.</p>
<p>There is but one living and true God, everlasting, without body or parts, of infinite power, wisdom, and goodness; the Maker and Preserver of all things, visible and invisible. And in unity of this Godhead there are three persons, of one substance, power, and eternity, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost.</p>
<p>II. OF THE WORD, OR SON OF GOD, WHO WAS MADE VERY MAN.</p>
<p>The Son, who is the Word of the Father, the very and eternal God, of one substance with the Father, took man&#8217;s nature in the womb of the blessed Virgin; so that two whole and perfect natures-that is to say, the Godhead and manhood-were joined together in one person, never to be divided, whereof is one Christ, very God and very man, who truly suffered, was crucified, dead and buried, to reconcile his Father to us, and to be a sacrifice, not only for original guilt, but also for the actual sins of men.<br />
&#8230;<br />
VII. OF ORIGINAL OR BIRTH SIN.</p>
<p>Original sin standeth not in the following of Adam (as the Pelagians do vainly talk), but it is the <em>corruption of the nature of every man, that naturally is engendered of the offspring of Adam</em>, whereby man is very far gone from original righteousness, and of his own nature inclined to evil, and that continually.</p>
<p>VIII. OF FREE WILL.</p>
<p>The condition of man after the fall of Adam is such that <em>he can not turn and prepare himself, by his own natural strength and works, to faith and calling upon God</em>; wherefore <em>we have no power to do good works</em>, pleasant and acceptable to God, without the grace of God by Christ preventing us, that we may have a good will, and working with us, when we have that good will.</p>
<p>IX. OF THE JUSTIFICATION OF MAN.</p>
<p>We are accounted righteous before God only for the merit of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ by faith, and not for our own works or deservings. Wherefore, that we are justified by faith only is a most wholesome doctrine, and very full of comfort.</p>
<p>X. OF GOOD WORKS.</p>
<p>Although good works, which are the fruits of faith, and follow after justification, can not put away our sins, and endure the severity of God&#8217;s judgments; yet are they pleasing and acceptable to God in Christ, and spring out of a true and lively faith, insomuch that by them a lively faith may be as evidently known as a tree is discerned by its fruit.<br />
(Methodist Articles of Religion, 1784)
</p></blockquote>
<p>Now the notable doctrine here, as with the original Arminians are the joint doctrines of total inability and total depravity &#8211; i.e. at least since the fall of Adam, not only can we do any good thing (even believe) without God&#8217;s help, we cannot help but do evil, and that continually.</p>
<p>Now we do not believe in Original Sin, or transitive depravity, but there is certainly room in LDS doctrine for certain forms of natural depravity, even from before the fall.  I maintain that they have to be conditioned on free will, however.</p>
<p>Remember sin is defined as the transgression of the law &#8211; that means that while there are certainly forms of natural evil, the fulness of the definition of what is good and what is evil did not precede the authorship and ratification of the plan of salvation.</p>
<p>Nowadays it is evil to ignore God and his plans, but way back when one might simply say &#8211; I want do to it my way (i.e. be a law unto oneself).  That is fine, it just means that people are ultimately on their own, which is damnation, not because God is pushing them down, but rather because they are unwilling to let God lift them up, on the terms and conditions he has specified.  </p>
<p>That is my account of natural depravity &#8211; self-willed-ness (pride), no more, no less.  Anything worse is freely chosen &#8211; i.e. to do something that is definitely a natural evil (e.g. destruction of the work of others).</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Mark Butler</title>
		<link>http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2006/07/salvation-means/262/comment-page-3/#comment-21278</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Butler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Jul 2006 20:45:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2006/07/what-exactly-do-our-scriputres-mean-when-they-say-salvation/262/#comment-21278</guid>
		<description>Now listen to the specific doctrines condemned in the Synod of Dort, where the first Arminians were excommunicated by Dutch Calvinists:

&lt;blockquote&gt;
P7. Who teach: That the grace whereby we are converted to God is only a gentle advising, or (as others explain it) that this is the noblest manner of working in the conversion of man, and &lt;em&gt;that this manner of working, which consists in advising, is most in harmony with man&#039;s nature;&lt;/em&gt; and &lt;em&gt;that there is no reason why this advising grace alone should not be sufficient to make the natural man spiritual&lt;/em&gt;; indeed, that God does not produce the consent of the will except through this manner of advising; and that the power of the divine working, whereby it surpasses the working of Satan, consists in this that God promises eternal, while Satan promise only temporal good.

But this is altogether Pelagian and contrary to the whole Scripture, which, besides this, teaches yet another and far more powerful and divine manner of the Holy Spirit&#039;s working in the conversion of man, as in Ezekiel: &quot;I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh (Ezek 36:26).&quot;

P8. Who teach: &lt;em&gt;That god in the regeneration of man does not use such powers of His omnipotence as potently and infallibly bend man&#039;s will to faith and conversion&lt;/em&gt;; but that all the works of grace having been accomplished, which God employs to convert man, man may yet so resist god and the Holy Spirit, when God intends man&#039;s regeneration and wills to regenerate him, and indeed that man often does so resist that he prevents entirely his regeneration, and that it therefore remains in man&#039;s power to be regenerated or not.

For this is nothing less than the denial of all that efficiency of God&#039;s grace in our conversion, and the subjecting of the working of Almighty God to the will of man, which is contrary to the apostles, who teach that we believe accord to the working of the strength of his might (Eph 1:19); and that God fulfills every desire of goodness and every work of faith with power (2 Th 1:11); and that &quot;His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness (2 Pet 1:3).&quot;

P9. Who teach: &lt;em&gt;That grace and free will are partial causes which together work the beginning of conversion, and that grace, in order of working, does not precede the working of the will&lt;/em&gt;; that is, that God does not efficiently help the will of man unto conversion until the will of man moves and determines to do this.

For the ancient Church has long ago condemned this doctrine of the Pelagians according to the words of the apostle: &quot;It does not, therefore, depend on man&#039;s desire or effort, but on God&#039;s mercy (Rom 9:16).&quot; Likewise: &quot;For who makes you different from anyone else? What do you have that you did not receive? And if you did receive it (1 Cor 4:7)?&quot; And: &quot;for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose (Phil 2:13).&quot;
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Note that free will is not allowed any credit for conversion - instead it is God&#039;s grace that works in a man, irresistably causing him to be converted to righteousness. (The implication of course is that God saves whom he will save, and damns whom he will damn, there is no resisting his will - he infallibly decrees whatsoever will come to pass).

&lt;blockquote&gt;
The true doctrine having been explained, the Synod rejects the errors of those:

P1. &lt;em&gt;Who teach: That the perseverance of the true believers is not a fruit of election, or a gift of God gained by the death of Christ, but a condition of the new covenant which (as they declare) man before his decisive election and justification must fulfil through his free will.&lt;/em&gt;

For the Holy Scripture testifies that this follows out of election, and is given the elect in virtue of the death, the resurrection, and the intercession of Christ: &quot;What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened (Rom 11:7).&quot; Likewise: &quot;He who did not spare His own Son, but gave him up for us all--how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died--more than that, who was raised to life--is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ (Rom 8:32-35)?&quot;

P2. Who teach: &lt;em&gt;That God does indeed provide the believer with sufficient powers to persevere, and is ever ready to preserve these in him if he will do his duty; but that, though all though which are necessary to persevere in faith and which God will use to preserve faith are made us of, even then it ever depends on the pleasure of the will whether it will persevere or not.&lt;/em&gt;

For this idea contains outspoken Pelagianism, and while it would make men free, it make them robbers of God&#039;s honor, contrary to the prevailing agreement of the evangelical doctrine, which takes from man all cause of boasting, and ascribes all the praise for this favor to the grace of God alone; and contrary to the apostle, who declares that it is God, &quot;He will keep you strong to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ (1 Cor 1:8).&quot;

P3. Who teach: &lt;em&gt;That the true believers and regenerate not only can fall from justifying faith and likewise from grace and salvation wholly and to the end, but indeed often do fall from this and are lost forever.&lt;/em&gt;

For this conception makes powerless the grace, justification, regeneration, and continued preservation by Christ, contrary to the expressed words of the apostle Paul: &quot;While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God&#039;s wrath through him (Rom 5:8-9).&quot; And contrary to the apostle John: &quot;No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God&#039;s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God (1 John 3:9).&quot; And also contrary to the words of Jesus Christ: &quot;I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all ; no one can snatch them out of my Father&#039;s hand (John 10:28-29).&quot;

P4. Who teach: &lt;em&gt;That true believers and regenerate can sin the sin unto death or against the Holy Spirit.&lt;/em&gt; 

Since the same apostle John, after having spoken in the fifth chapter of his first epistle, vs. 16 and 17, of those who sin unto death and having forbidden to pray for them, immediately adds to this in vs. 18: &quot;We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin (meaning a sin of that character); the one who was born of God keeps him safe, and the evil one cannot harm him (1 John 5:18).&quot;

P5. Who teach: &lt;em&gt;That without a special revelation we can have no certainty of future perseverance in this life&lt;/em&gt;.

For by this doctrine the sure comfort of the true believers is taken away in this life, and the doubts of the papist are again introduced into the Church, while the Holy Scriptures constantly deduce this assurance, not from a special and extraordinary revelation, but from the marks proper to the children of God and from the very constant promises of God. So especially the apostle Paul: &quot;neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord (Rom 8:39).&quot; And John declares: &quot;Those who obey his commands live in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us (1 John 3:24).&quot;

P6. Who teach: &lt;em&gt;That the doctrine of the certainty of perseverance and of salvation from its own character and nature is a cause of indolence and is injurious to godliness, good morals, prayers, and other holy exercises, but that on the contrary it is praiseworthy to doubt.&lt;/em&gt;

For these show that they do not know the power of divine grace and the working of the indwelling Holy Spirit. And they contradict the apostle John, who teaches that opposite with express words in his first epistle: &quot;Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when he appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. Everyone who has this hope in him purifies himself, just as he is pure (1 John 3:2-3).&quot; Furthermore, these are contradicted by the example of the saints, both of the Old and the New Testament, who though they were assured of their perseverance and salvation, were nevertheless constant in prayers and other exercises of godliness.

P7. Who teach: &lt;em&gt;That the faith of those who believe for a time does not differ from justifying and saving faith except only in duration.&lt;/em&gt;

For Christ Himself, in Matt 13:20, Luke 8:13, and in other places, evidently notes, beside this duration, a threefold difference between those who believe only for a time and true believers, when He declares that the former receive the seed on stony ground, but the latter in the good ground or heart; that the former are without root, but the latter have a firm root; that the former are without fruit, but that the latter bring forth their fruit in various measure, with constancy and steadfastness.

P8. Who teach: That it is not absurd that one having lost his first regeneration is again and even often born anew.

For these deny by this doctrine the incorruptibleness of the seed of God, whereby we are born again; contrary to the testimony of the apostle Peter: &quot;For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable (1 Pet 1:23).&quot;

P9. Who teach: That Christ has in no place prayed that believers should &lt;em&gt;infallibly&lt;/em&gt; continue in faith.

For the contradict Christ Himself, who says: &quot;I have prayed for you, Simon, that your faith may not fail (Luke 22:32)&quot;, and the evangelist John, who declares that Christ has not prayed for the apostles only, but also for those who through their word would believe: &quot;Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name,&quot; and &quot;My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one (John 17:11, 15, 20).&quot;
(CANONS OF DORDT, Synod of Dordrecht, November 13, 1618 - May 9, 1619)
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Now those condemned doctrines should more than establish that Mormonism is heavily on the Arminian side of the Calvnist / Arminian divide, and more so, because we reject both Original Sin and total depravity which the Arminians generally do not, at least not traditionally.


</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Now listen to the specific doctrines condemned in the Synod of Dort, where the first Arminians were excommunicated by Dutch Calvinists:</p>
<blockquote><p>
P7. Who teach: That the grace whereby we are converted to God is only a gentle advising, or (as others explain it) that this is the noblest manner of working in the conversion of man, and <em>that this manner of working, which consists in advising, is most in harmony with man&#8217;s nature;</em> and <em>that there is no reason why this advising grace alone should not be sufficient to make the natural man spiritual</em>; indeed, that God does not produce the consent of the will except through this manner of advising; and that the power of the divine working, whereby it surpasses the working of Satan, consists in this that God promises eternal, while Satan promise only temporal good.</p>
<p>But this is altogether Pelagian and contrary to the whole Scripture, which, besides this, teaches yet another and far more powerful and divine manner of the Holy Spirit&#8217;s working in the conversion of man, as in Ezekiel: &#8220;I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh (Ezek 36:26).&#8221;</p>
<p>P8. Who teach: <em>That god in the regeneration of man does not use such powers of His omnipotence as potently and infallibly bend man&#8217;s will to faith and conversion</em>; but that all the works of grace having been accomplished, which God employs to convert man, man may yet so resist god and the Holy Spirit, when God intends man&#8217;s regeneration and wills to regenerate him, and indeed that man often does so resist that he prevents entirely his regeneration, and that it therefore remains in man&#8217;s power to be regenerated or not.</p>
<p>For this is nothing less than the denial of all that efficiency of God&#8217;s grace in our conversion, and the subjecting of the working of Almighty God to the will of man, which is contrary to the apostles, who teach that we believe accord to the working of the strength of his might (Eph 1:19); and that God fulfills every desire of goodness and every work of faith with power (2 Th 1:11); and that &#8220;His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness (2 Pet 1:3).&#8221;</p>
<p>P9. Who teach: <em>That grace and free will are partial causes which together work the beginning of conversion, and that grace, in order of working, does not precede the working of the will</em>; that is, that God does not efficiently help the will of man unto conversion until the will of man moves and determines to do this.</p>
<p>For the ancient Church has long ago condemned this doctrine of the Pelagians according to the words of the apostle: &#8220;It does not, therefore, depend on man&#8217;s desire or effort, but on God&#8217;s mercy (Rom 9:16).&#8221; Likewise: &#8220;For who makes you different from anyone else? What do you have that you did not receive? And if you did receive it (1 Cor 4:7)?&#8221; And: &#8220;for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose (Phil 2:13).&#8221;
</p></blockquote>
<p>Note that free will is not allowed any credit for conversion &#8211; instead it is God&#8217;s grace that works in a man, irresistably causing him to be converted to righteousness. (The implication of course is that God saves whom he will save, and damns whom he will damn, there is no resisting his will &#8211; he infallibly decrees whatsoever will come to pass).</p>
<blockquote><p>
The true doctrine having been explained, the Synod rejects the errors of those:</p>
<p>P1. <em>Who teach: That the perseverance of the true believers is not a fruit of election, or a gift of God gained by the death of Christ, but a condition of the new covenant which (as they declare) man before his decisive election and justification must fulfil through his free will.</em></p>
<p>For the Holy Scripture testifies that this follows out of election, and is given the elect in virtue of the death, the resurrection, and the intercession of Christ: &#8220;What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened (Rom 11:7).&#8221; Likewise: &#8220;He who did not spare His own Son, but gave him up for us all&#8211;how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died&#8211;more than that, who was raised to life&#8211;is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ (Rom 8:32-35)?&#8221;</p>
<p>P2. Who teach: <em>That God does indeed provide the believer with sufficient powers to persevere, and is ever ready to preserve these in him if he will do his duty; but that, though all though which are necessary to persevere in faith and which God will use to preserve faith are made us of, even then it ever depends on the pleasure of the will whether it will persevere or not.</em></p>
<p>For this idea contains outspoken Pelagianism, and while it would make men free, it make them robbers of God&#8217;s honor, contrary to the prevailing agreement of the evangelical doctrine, which takes from man all cause of boasting, and ascribes all the praise for this favor to the grace of God alone; and contrary to the apostle, who declares that it is God, &#8220;He will keep you strong to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ (1 Cor 1:8).&#8221;</p>
<p>P3. Who teach: <em>That the true believers and regenerate not only can fall from justifying faith and likewise from grace and salvation wholly and to the end, but indeed often do fall from this and are lost forever.</em></p>
<p>For this conception makes powerless the grace, justification, regeneration, and continued preservation by Christ, contrary to the expressed words of the apostle Paul: &#8220;While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God&#8217;s wrath through him (Rom 5:8-9).&#8221; And contrary to the apostle John: &#8220;No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God&#8217;s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God (1 John 3:9).&#8221; And also contrary to the words of Jesus Christ: &#8220;I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all ; no one can snatch them out of my Father&#8217;s hand (John 10:28-29).&#8221;</p>
<p>P4. Who teach: <em>That true believers and regenerate can sin the sin unto death or against the Holy Spirit.</em> </p>
<p>Since the same apostle John, after having spoken in the fifth chapter of his first epistle, vs. 16 and 17, of those who sin unto death and having forbidden to pray for them, immediately adds to this in vs. 18: &#8220;We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin (meaning a sin of that character); the one who was born of God keeps him safe, and the evil one cannot harm him (1 John 5:18).&#8221;</p>
<p>P5. Who teach: <em>That without a special revelation we can have no certainty of future perseverance in this life</em>.</p>
<p>For by this doctrine the sure comfort of the true believers is taken away in this life, and the doubts of the papist are again introduced into the Church, while the Holy Scriptures constantly deduce this assurance, not from a special and extraordinary revelation, but from the marks proper to the children of God and from the very constant promises of God. So especially the apostle Paul: &#8220;neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord (Rom 8:39).&#8221; And John declares: &#8220;Those who obey his commands live in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us (1 John 3:24).&#8221;</p>
<p>P6. Who teach: <em>That the doctrine of the certainty of perseverance and of salvation from its own character and nature is a cause of indolence and is injurious to godliness, good morals, prayers, and other holy exercises, but that on the contrary it is praiseworthy to doubt.</em></p>
<p>For these show that they do not know the power of divine grace and the working of the indwelling Holy Spirit. And they contradict the apostle John, who teaches that opposite with express words in his first epistle: &#8220;Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when he appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. Everyone who has this hope in him purifies himself, just as he is pure (1 John 3:2-3).&#8221; Furthermore, these are contradicted by the example of the saints, both of the Old and the New Testament, who though they were assured of their perseverance and salvation, were nevertheless constant in prayers and other exercises of godliness.</p>
<p>P7. Who teach: <em>That the faith of those who believe for a time does not differ from justifying and saving faith except only in duration.</em></p>
<p>For Christ Himself, in Matt 13:20, Luke 8:13, and in other places, evidently notes, beside this duration, a threefold difference between those who believe only for a time and true believers, when He declares that the former receive the seed on stony ground, but the latter in the good ground or heart; that the former are without root, but the latter have a firm root; that the former are without fruit, but that the latter bring forth their fruit in various measure, with constancy and steadfastness.</p>
<p>P8. Who teach: That it is not absurd that one having lost his first regeneration is again and even often born anew.</p>
<p>For these deny by this doctrine the incorruptibleness of the seed of God, whereby we are born again; contrary to the testimony of the apostle Peter: &#8220;For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable (1 Pet 1:23).&#8221;</p>
<p>P9. Who teach: That Christ has in no place prayed that believers should <em>infallibly</em> continue in faith.</p>
<p>For the contradict Christ Himself, who says: &#8220;I have prayed for you, Simon, that your faith may not fail (Luke 22:32)&#8221;, and the evangelist John, who declares that Christ has not prayed for the apostles only, but also for those who through their word would believe: &#8220;Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name,&#8221; and &#8220;My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one (John 17:11, 15, 20).&#8221;<br />
(CANONS OF DORDT, Synod of Dordrecht, November 13, 1618 &#8211; May 9, 1619)
</p></blockquote>
<p>Now those condemned doctrines should more than establish that Mormonism is heavily on the Arminian side of the Calvnist / Arminian divide, and more so, because we reject both Original Sin and total depravity which the Arminians generally do not, at least not traditionally.</p>
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