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	<title>Comments on: Why preaching the highly questionable notion of no progression between kingdoms might be a good idea</title>
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	<description>Mormon Musings by yer ol' pals</description>
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		<title>By: W.S.Clark</title>
		<link>http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2006/05/incentives-to-repent/245/comment-page-2/#comment-392177</link>
		<dc:creator>W.S.Clark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Nov 2009 20:35:07 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>To me the scriptures are very clear, like in 2 Nephi 28:8 (Some will say, God will justify committing a little sin, punish us for it after death, then save us) and Alma 32:32-34 (&quot;Now is the time to repent.&quot;).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To me the scriptures are very clear, like in 2 Nephi 28:8 (Some will say, God will justify committing a little sin, punish us for it after death, then save us) and Alma 32:32-34 (&#8220;Now is the time to repent.&#8221;).</p>
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		<title>By: MrNirom</title>
		<link>http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2006/05/incentives-to-repent/245/comment-page-2/#comment-331208</link>
		<dc:creator>MrNirom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Apr 2009 04:15:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2006/05/why-preaching-the-highly-questionable-notion-of-no-progression-between-kingdoms-might-be-a-good-idea/245/#comment-331208</guid>
		<description>I came across an article written by JJ Dewey about many of things you folks are talking about.

He wrote a book called Eternal Lives, which deals with the principle of multiple lives... Here is Chapter two from that book :-)
&lt;em&gt;
&lt;blockquote&gt;My mind reflects back now to another curiosity in Mormon doctrine caused by a lack of information. The Church believes that many of us will go to the celestial kingdom and there become Gods and have spirit children and eventually create our own worlds and people them. Then our children on those worlds will pray to us and worship us as Gods. Since the course of God is &quot;one eternal round&quot; (I Nephi 10:19) that means that the course of God in the past will be like that of the future. Taking this into account it means that our God at one time lived on another world like this. This is recognized by Mormon doctrine since Lorenzo Snow said &quot;as man is God once was.&quot; Now the question that arises is this: When God was on this other world was he the Savior of that world, or was he an Apostle, or maybe he was just an Elder who was a faithful home teacher? Then too he may have died as a baby and only breathed a few breaths. Maybe he was born during a Millennium and knew no sin.

Let&#039;s suppose that God was a typical member of the Church in His day. He had to spend most of his life just earning a living. He paid his tithes and offerings and did his home teaching and obeyed his Bishop. He never had any opportunity to be a savior for he would have never dreamed of comparing himself to such. Finally, he died and went off to the spirit world and there by some mysterious process learned everything necessary to be a God. Now he is up there in heaven and we worship him. The question I have is, would not God feel humiliated to have a Son like Jesus who showed him up so much when he came down for his life? If this were the case then Jesus did ten times as good in his earth life as his Father did. How can I show due respect to a God that has not experienced all the tribulation of earth life that I have? Such a God could not succor me in every time of need. One can only have a very limited number of experiences and trials in one life. Each person I meet can only understand a portion of my problems because only a portion of his problems are similar to mine. What right did God have to command Abraham to take the life of his son or Jesus to be crucified if he had not went through a similar experience himself? What right did God have to expect his son to be a savior if he had not done so himself?

Let us suppose that ten million souls on God&#039;s original earth made it to the celestial kingdom and became Gods. That would roughly mean that we have one chance in ten million of having for our god the person that was the savior of a world. Chances would be our God is merely some Elder that did his duty, but wait! The scriptures tell us that we are the lucky ones! Our God was the Savior of a world. Jesus said:
&quot;The Son can do nothing of himself, but what HE SEETH THE FATHER DO: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth.&quot;  (John 5:19-20)
Here we have it! God must have been a savior at one time for what Jesus did when he was here was almost a carbon copy of what he saw the Father did. Our God then certainly does deserve our respect, but what about the other Gods who were not Saviors? How can their only begotten Sons say that they are doing what their Fathers did? How could they teach anyone else to be a Savior if they have not learned how and proven it through an actual life as a Savior themselves? They could not. To become a God we must &quot;overcome all things&quot; [Doctrine &amp; Covenants (D&amp;C) 76:60] and &quot;The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.&quot;  (I Cor 15:26)   Jesus overcame all things and the last enemy he overcame was death and after many lives it will be our last enemy for we as yet have not overcome all things for he &quot;only hath immortality.&quot;  (I Tim 6:16)

How could one possibly overcome all the weaknesses of mortality in one life? Many believe that in some mysterious way we do not understand we will overcome the weaknesses of the flesh in the spirit. But how can this be so? If one did not pay his tithing because he was worried about feeding his family how can he possibly gain the faith necessary to do this in the spirit where he does not have to worry about survival? One can only overcome the things of the flesh IN THE FLESH. It is as Jesus said to his disciples:
&quot;And I will show it plainly as I showed it unto my disciples as I stood before them in the flesh and spake unto them saying: As ye have asked me concerning the signs of my coming, in the day when I shall come in my glory in the clouds Of heaven, to fulfill the promises that I have made unto your fathers. For as ye have looked upon the long absence of your spirits from your bodies to be a bondage, I wil1 show unto you how the day of redemption shall come....&quot;  (D&amp;C 45:16-17)
Here Jesus was talking to the disciples during his mortal life and he commented on the apostles grumbling about the hardship of their spirits being separate from their bodies, obviously in the past. But if their life with Jesus was their first life, when were their spirits ever separated from their bodies and, how did they know it was a bondage? If their spirits had previously been separated from their bodies then sometime in their past they occupied other bodies. The disciples were merely complaining about their lack of progress between lifetimes!

The disciples like Abraham had lived numerous lives as shown in the scriptures:   &quot;And Joshua said unto the people, Thus saith the Lord God of Israel, your father dwelt on the other side of the flood in old time....&quot;  (Joshua 24:2)   The other side of the flood probably means before the days of the flood of Noah.   &quot;And I took ... Abraham FROM THE OTHER SIDE OF THE FLOOD, and led him throughout all the land of Canaan...&quot;  (Joshua 24:3)   This scripture certainly implies that Abraham lived on the other side of the flood, or before the flood, in a previous lifetime

It is as Joseph Smith said:   We progress &quot;from grace to grace and exaltation to exaltation until we attain the resurrection of the dead.&quot;   (History of the Church Vol. 6:306)

Now the common belief in the church is that we are resurrected and then exalted, but Joseph here states point blank that we must first not only be exalted, but go from exaltation to exaltation before we attain the resurrection.

As we shall see, it is obvious that Joseph believed in reincarnation, but this was one of the doctrines he had to keep secret and teach only with subtle hints except for some close friends as indicated in Orson Whitney&#039;s diary:
&quot;During our talks he (Lorenzo Snow) told me that his sister, the late Eliza R. Snow Smith was a firm believer in the principle of reincarnation and that she claimed to have received it from Joseph the Prophet, her husband. He said he saw nothing unreasonable in it, and could believe it, if it came to him from the Lord or his oracle.&quot;  (Diary of Orson F. Whitney June 8, 1889)
Joseph Lee Robinson, a contemporary of Joseph Smith wrote:
&quot;We also heard him [Joseph] say that God had revealed unto him that any man who ever committed adultery in either of his probations that that man could never be raised to the highest exaltation in the celestial glory and that he [Joseph] felt anxious with regard to himself and he inquired of the Lord and the Lord told him that he, Joseph, had never committed adultery. (See D&amp;C 132:41.) This saying of the Prophet astonished me very much. It opened up to me a very wide field of reflection. The idea that we had passed through probation prior to this and that we must have been married and given in marriage in those probations or there would be no propriety in making such an assertion and that there were several exaltations in the Celestial Kingdom of our God, the highest we supposed to be the Godhead and we conclude that there are several grades of exaltations in servants to the Gods. Be this as it may, this is what he said.&quot;  (The Journal of Joseph Lee Robinson, p.12)
Orson Hyde applied the term &quot;baby resurrection&quot; to the coming reunion with our bodies. By this he meant that instead of obtaining new bodies by raising out of the grave we will become babies again by coming out of the womb of a female. (From &quot;An Intimate Chronicle: The Journals Of William Clayton,&quot; pg 429-430)

Other of the early brethren referred to the resurrection as &quot;multiple moralities&quot; and were open to all possibilities as to how the resurrection will play out.

John Taylor clearly pointed out the need to overcome all things before any final triumph:
&quot;If any man or woman expects to enter into the celestial kingdom of our God without being tested to the very uttermost, they have not understood the gospel. If there is a weak spot in our nature, or if there is a fiber that can be made to quiver or to shrink, we may rest assured that it will be tested.&quot;  (&#039;The Kingdom Of God Or Nothing,&#039; page 345)
&quot;For everyone shall be salted with fire.&quot;  (Mark 9:49)
&quot;To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even AS I ALSO OVERCAME, and am set down with my Father in his throne.&quot;  (Rev 3:21)
Any reasonable person will admit that in one lifetime it would be impossible to be tested in all things or to overcome as did Jesus.

Clearly, then, we are to follow in the footsteps of Jesus and eventually live the perfect life:
&quot;And he that overcometh and keepth my works unto the end to him wil1 I give power over the nations ... EVEN AS I RECEIVED OF MY FATHER.  (Rev 2:26-27)
&quot;As my Father hath sent me, even so I send you.&quot;  (John 20:21)
Finally God says:
&quot;Him that over cometh I will make a pillar in the temple of my God, AND HE SHALL GO NO MORE OUT (Shall not have to be reborn)  (Rev 3:12)
To show clearly that we only achieve immortality after we achieve the status of the Christ we quote: &quot;For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive fullness of joy. And when separated, man cannot receive fullness of joy.&quot;  (D&amp;C 93:33-34)

Now I will make a statement that is beyond refute:   If a fullness of joy is produced by an inseparable connection of the body and spirit then any connection where there is not an eternal connection will not produce a fullness of joy. If a fullness of joy is not produced then the union of spirit and body is temporary.

Where is there not a fullness of joy?

Obviously there is not a fullness of joy in the lower words of the terrestrial and telestial.

So what does this tell us?

That beyond scriptural argument the spirit and body can yet be separated and die in the lower worlds.

Those earmarked for the lower worlds are those who are subject to corruption to some degree. Where there is corruption there is always the disintegration of the form. The scriptures are clear:   &quot;Whatsoever temple (body) is defiled, GOD SHALL DESTROY THAT TEMPLE.&quot; (D&amp;C 93:35)   All those in the lower kingdoms have sinned and defiled their temples so their bodies shall be destroyed. Furthermore I must point out that a Fullness of joy which produces immortality only comes in the presence of God:   &quot;In thy presence is fullness of joy.&quot; (Psalms 16:11)   &quot;They shall inherit the kingdom of God ... and their joy shall be full forever.&quot; (2 Nephi 9:18)   Finally we see that fullness of joy comes from living a life like the Christ:   &quot;And for this cause ye shall have fullness of joy; and ye shall sit down in the kingdom of my Father; yea, your joy shall be full, EVEN AS THE FATHER HATH GIVEN ME FULLNESS OF JOY; AND YE SHALL BE EVEN AS I AM....&quot;  (3 Nephi 28:10)

That there is a resurrection of corruption is plainly set forth by Paul:
&quot;Whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap (Often in a future life). For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh REAP CORRUPTION (Greek PHTHORA means decay); but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.&quot;  (Gal 6:7-8)
The doctrine of reincarnation was revealed to Joseph Smith near the end of his life, but instead of calling it reincarnation he called it &quot;eternal lives.&quot;  (D&amp;C 132:25&amp;55)   The church has always assumed that the reason the word &quot;lives&quot; is plural is because more than one individual will achieve eternal life (or the husband and wife together make two eternal lives) but this idea does not coincide with the scripture:
&quot;But if she (Emma) will not abide this commandment, then shall my servant Joseph do all things for her, even as he hath said; and I will bless HIM (singular) and multiply him and give unto him an HUNDREDFOLD IN THIS WORLD, of fathers and mothers, brothers and sisters, houses and lands, wives and children, and crowns of ETERNAL LIVES IN THE ETERNAL WORLDS.&quot;  (D&amp;C 132:55)
Here the Lord was definitely speaking to Joseph Smith alone, not including his wife or anyone else and promised him IN THIS WORLD (this earth existence) an hundredfold of fathers and mothers (whoever heard of having one hundred fathers and mothers?) brothers and sisters, houses (know anyone who lived in one hundred houses?) lands (How could he live in one hundred countries in one life?), wives and children (Joseph Smith never had one hundred wives and children in this world).

Remember up to now the scripture deals with &quot;this World&quot; -- not the next. However, the scripture plainly points out that only the last few words refers to the next world:   &quot;And crowns of eternal lives (plural) in the eternal worlds (plural). In other words, we will live many lives on many other different earths, worlds far superior to this. Instead of living on a telestial earth like this we will go to terrestrial and celestial worlds made of matter whose atoms vibrate to a purer tone whose nucleus of light shines through unfolded electrons until the bodies shine like the sun where there is no night. The highest glory we may obtain in this telestial earth (where we currently live) is to be &quot;servants of the Most High.&quot; (D&amp;C 76:112)   All the worlds you see in the sky at night are of a telestial order. The higher worlds are in a light beyond normal vision.

Only in the Celestial and above can there be a fullness of joy where standard excursions into mortality will not be necessary.&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;/em&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I came across an article written by JJ Dewey about many of things you folks are talking about.</p>
<p>He wrote a book called Eternal Lives, which deals with the principle of multiple lives&#8230; Here is Chapter two from that book :-)<br />
<em></p>
<blockquote><p>My mind reflects back now to another curiosity in Mormon doctrine caused by a lack of information. The Church believes that many of us will go to the celestial kingdom and there become Gods and have spirit children and eventually create our own worlds and people them. Then our children on those worlds will pray to us and worship us as Gods. Since the course of God is &#8220;one eternal round&#8221; (I Nephi 10:19) that means that the course of God in the past will be like that of the future. Taking this into account it means that our God at one time lived on another world like this. This is recognized by Mormon doctrine since Lorenzo Snow said &#8220;as man is God once was.&#8221; Now the question that arises is this: When God was on this other world was he the Savior of that world, or was he an Apostle, or maybe he was just an Elder who was a faithful home teacher? Then too he may have died as a baby and only breathed a few breaths. Maybe he was born during a Millennium and knew no sin.</p>
<p>Let&#8217;s suppose that God was a typical member of the Church in His day. He had to spend most of his life just earning a living. He paid his tithes and offerings and did his home teaching and obeyed his Bishop. He never had any opportunity to be a savior for he would have never dreamed of comparing himself to such. Finally, he died and went off to the spirit world and there by some mysterious process learned everything necessary to be a God. Now he is up there in heaven and we worship him. The question I have is, would not God feel humiliated to have a Son like Jesus who showed him up so much when he came down for his life? If this were the case then Jesus did ten times as good in his earth life as his Father did. How can I show due respect to a God that has not experienced all the tribulation of earth life that I have? Such a God could not succor me in every time of need. One can only have a very limited number of experiences and trials in one life. Each person I meet can only understand a portion of my problems because only a portion of his problems are similar to mine. What right did God have to command Abraham to take the life of his son or Jesus to be crucified if he had not went through a similar experience himself? What right did God have to expect his son to be a savior if he had not done so himself?</p>
<p>Let us suppose that ten million souls on God&#8217;s original earth made it to the celestial kingdom and became Gods. That would roughly mean that we have one chance in ten million of having for our god the person that was the savior of a world. Chances would be our God is merely some Elder that did his duty, but wait! The scriptures tell us that we are the lucky ones! Our God was the Savior of a world. Jesus said:<br />
&#8220;The Son can do nothing of himself, but what HE SEETH THE FATHER DO: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth.&#8221;  (John 5:19-20)<br />
Here we have it! God must have been a savior at one time for what Jesus did when he was here was almost a carbon copy of what he saw the Father did. Our God then certainly does deserve our respect, but what about the other Gods who were not Saviors? How can their only begotten Sons say that they are doing what their Fathers did? How could they teach anyone else to be a Savior if they have not learned how and proven it through an actual life as a Savior themselves? They could not. To become a God we must &#8220;overcome all things&#8221; [Doctrine &amp; Covenants (D&amp;C) 76:60] and &#8220;The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.&#8221;  (I Cor 15:26)   Jesus overcame all things and the last enemy he overcame was death and after many lives it will be our last enemy for we as yet have not overcome all things for he &#8220;only hath immortality.&#8221;  (I Tim 6:16)</p>
<p>How could one possibly overcome all the weaknesses of mortality in one life? Many believe that in some mysterious way we do not understand we will overcome the weaknesses of the flesh in the spirit. But how can this be so? If one did not pay his tithing because he was worried about feeding his family how can he possibly gain the faith necessary to do this in the spirit where he does not have to worry about survival? One can only overcome the things of the flesh IN THE FLESH. It is as Jesus said to his disciples:<br />
&#8220;And I will show it plainly as I showed it unto my disciples as I stood before them in the flesh and spake unto them saying: As ye have asked me concerning the signs of my coming, in the day when I shall come in my glory in the clouds Of heaven, to fulfill the promises that I have made unto your fathers. For as ye have looked upon the long absence of your spirits from your bodies to be a bondage, I wil1 show unto you how the day of redemption shall come&#8230;.&#8221;  (D&amp;C 45:16-17)<br />
Here Jesus was talking to the disciples during his mortal life and he commented on the apostles grumbling about the hardship of their spirits being separate from their bodies, obviously in the past. But if their life with Jesus was their first life, when were their spirits ever separated from their bodies and, how did they know it was a bondage? If their spirits had previously been separated from their bodies then sometime in their past they occupied other bodies. The disciples were merely complaining about their lack of progress between lifetimes!</p>
<p>The disciples like Abraham had lived numerous lives as shown in the scriptures:   &#8220;And Joshua said unto the people, Thus saith the Lord God of Israel, your father dwelt on the other side of the flood in old time&#8230;.&#8221;  (Joshua 24:2)   The other side of the flood probably means before the days of the flood of Noah.   &#8220;And I took &#8230; Abraham FROM THE OTHER SIDE OF THE FLOOD, and led him throughout all the land of Canaan&#8230;&#8221;  (Joshua 24:3)   This scripture certainly implies that Abraham lived on the other side of the flood, or before the flood, in a previous lifetime</p>
<p>It is as Joseph Smith said:   We progress &#8220;from grace to grace and exaltation to exaltation until we attain the resurrection of the dead.&#8221;   (History of the Church Vol. 6:306)</p>
<p>Now the common belief in the church is that we are resurrected and then exalted, but Joseph here states point blank that we must first not only be exalted, but go from exaltation to exaltation before we attain the resurrection.</p>
<p>As we shall see, it is obvious that Joseph believed in reincarnation, but this was one of the doctrines he had to keep secret and teach only with subtle hints except for some close friends as indicated in Orson Whitney&#8217;s diary:<br />
&#8220;During our talks he (Lorenzo Snow) told me that his sister, the late Eliza R. Snow Smith was a firm believer in the principle of reincarnation and that she claimed to have received it from Joseph the Prophet, her husband. He said he saw nothing unreasonable in it, and could believe it, if it came to him from the Lord or his oracle.&#8221;  (Diary of Orson F. Whitney June 8, 1889)<br />
Joseph Lee Robinson, a contemporary of Joseph Smith wrote:<br />
&#8220;We also heard him [Joseph] say that God had revealed unto him that any man who ever committed adultery in either of his probations that that man could never be raised to the highest exaltation in the celestial glory and that he [Joseph] felt anxious with regard to himself and he inquired of the Lord and the Lord told him that he, Joseph, had never committed adultery. (See D&amp;C 132:41.) This saying of the Prophet astonished me very much. It opened up to me a very wide field of reflection. The idea that we had passed through probation prior to this and that we must have been married and given in marriage in those probations or there would be no propriety in making such an assertion and that there were several exaltations in the Celestial Kingdom of our God, the highest we supposed to be the Godhead and we conclude that there are several grades of exaltations in servants to the Gods. Be this as it may, this is what he said.&#8221;  (The Journal of Joseph Lee Robinson, p.12)<br />
Orson Hyde applied the term &#8220;baby resurrection&#8221; to the coming reunion with our bodies. By this he meant that instead of obtaining new bodies by raising out of the grave we will become babies again by coming out of the womb of a female. (From &#8220;An Intimate Chronicle: The Journals Of William Clayton,&#8221; pg 429-430)</p>
<p>Other of the early brethren referred to the resurrection as &#8220;multiple moralities&#8221; and were open to all possibilities as to how the resurrection will play out.</p>
<p>John Taylor clearly pointed out the need to overcome all things before any final triumph:<br />
&#8220;If any man or woman expects to enter into the celestial kingdom of our God without being tested to the very uttermost, they have not understood the gospel. If there is a weak spot in our nature, or if there is a fiber that can be made to quiver or to shrink, we may rest assured that it will be tested.&#8221;  (&#8216;The Kingdom Of God Or Nothing,&#8217; page 345)<br />
&#8220;For everyone shall be salted with fire.&#8221;  (Mark 9:49)<br />
&#8220;To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even AS I ALSO OVERCAME, and am set down with my Father in his throne.&#8221;  (Rev 3:21)<br />
Any reasonable person will admit that in one lifetime it would be impossible to be tested in all things or to overcome as did Jesus.</p>
<p>Clearly, then, we are to follow in the footsteps of Jesus and eventually live the perfect life:<br />
&#8220;And he that overcometh and keepth my works unto the end to him wil1 I give power over the nations &#8230; EVEN AS I RECEIVED OF MY FATHER.  (Rev 2:26-27)<br />
&#8220;As my Father hath sent me, even so I send you.&#8221;  (John 20:21)<br />
Finally God says:<br />
&#8220;Him that over cometh I will make a pillar in the temple of my God, AND HE SHALL GO NO MORE OUT (Shall not have to be reborn)  (Rev 3:12)<br />
To show clearly that we only achieve immortality after we achieve the status of the Christ we quote: &#8220;For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive fullness of joy. And when separated, man cannot receive fullness of joy.&#8221;  (D&amp;C 93:33-34)</p>
<p>Now I will make a statement that is beyond refute:   If a fullness of joy is produced by an inseparable connection of the body and spirit then any connection where there is not an eternal connection will not produce a fullness of joy. If a fullness of joy is not produced then the union of spirit and body is temporary.</p>
<p>Where is there not a fullness of joy?</p>
<p>Obviously there is not a fullness of joy in the lower words of the terrestrial and telestial.</p>
<p>So what does this tell us?</p>
<p>That beyond scriptural argument the spirit and body can yet be separated and die in the lower worlds.</p>
<p>Those earmarked for the lower worlds are those who are subject to corruption to some degree. Where there is corruption there is always the disintegration of the form. The scriptures are clear:   &#8220;Whatsoever temple (body) is defiled, GOD SHALL DESTROY THAT TEMPLE.&#8221; (D&amp;C 93:35)   All those in the lower kingdoms have sinned and defiled their temples so their bodies shall be destroyed. Furthermore I must point out that a Fullness of joy which produces immortality only comes in the presence of God:   &#8220;In thy presence is fullness of joy.&#8221; (Psalms 16:11)   &#8220;They shall inherit the kingdom of God &#8230; and their joy shall be full forever.&#8221; (2 Nephi 9:18)   Finally we see that fullness of joy comes from living a life like the Christ:   &#8220;And for this cause ye shall have fullness of joy; and ye shall sit down in the kingdom of my Father; yea, your joy shall be full, EVEN AS THE FATHER HATH GIVEN ME FULLNESS OF JOY; AND YE SHALL BE EVEN AS I AM&#8230;.&#8221;  (3 Nephi 28:10)</p>
<p>That there is a resurrection of corruption is plainly set forth by Paul:<br />
&#8220;Whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap (Often in a future life). For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh REAP CORRUPTION (Greek PHTHORA means decay); but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.&#8221;  (Gal 6:7-8)<br />
The doctrine of reincarnation was revealed to Joseph Smith near the end of his life, but instead of calling it reincarnation he called it &#8220;eternal lives.&#8221;  (D&amp;C 132:25&amp;55)   The church has always assumed that the reason the word &#8220;lives&#8221; is plural is because more than one individual will achieve eternal life (or the husband and wife together make two eternal lives) but this idea does not coincide with the scripture:<br />
&#8220;But if she (Emma) will not abide this commandment, then shall my servant Joseph do all things for her, even as he hath said; and I will bless HIM (singular) and multiply him and give unto him an HUNDREDFOLD IN THIS WORLD, of fathers and mothers, brothers and sisters, houses and lands, wives and children, and crowns of ETERNAL LIVES IN THE ETERNAL WORLDS.&#8221;  (D&amp;C 132:55)<br />
Here the Lord was definitely speaking to Joseph Smith alone, not including his wife or anyone else and promised him IN THIS WORLD (this earth existence) an hundredfold of fathers and mothers (whoever heard of having one hundred fathers and mothers?) brothers and sisters, houses (know anyone who lived in one hundred houses?) lands (How could he live in one hundred countries in one life?), wives and children (Joseph Smith never had one hundred wives and children in this world).</p>
<p>Remember up to now the scripture deals with &#8220;this World&#8221; &#8212; not the next. However, the scripture plainly points out that only the last few words refers to the next world:   &#8220;And crowns of eternal lives (plural) in the eternal worlds (plural). In other words, we will live many lives on many other different earths, worlds far superior to this. Instead of living on a telestial earth like this we will go to terrestrial and celestial worlds made of matter whose atoms vibrate to a purer tone whose nucleus of light shines through unfolded electrons until the bodies shine like the sun where there is no night. The highest glory we may obtain in this telestial earth (where we currently live) is to be &#8220;servants of the Most High.&#8221; (D&amp;C 76:112)   All the worlds you see in the sky at night are of a telestial order. The higher worlds are in a light beyond normal vision.</p>
<p>Only in the Celestial and above can there be a fullness of joy where standard excursions into mortality will not be necessary.</p></blockquote>
<p></em></p>
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		<title>By: Jacob J</title>
		<link>http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2006/05/incentives-to-repent/245/comment-page-2/#comment-311894</link>
		<dc:creator>Jacob J</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Feb 2009 19:20:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2006/05/why-preaching-the-highly-questionable-notion-of-no-progression-between-kingdoms-might-be-a-good-idea/245/#comment-311894</guid>
		<description>Jesef,

About the 2,555,000,000 number, please see &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2007/03/taking-josephs-ring-analogy-seriously/344/#comment-64460&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;this comment&lt;/a&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jesef,</p>
<p>About the 2,555,000,000 number, please see <a href="http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2007/03/taking-josephs-ring-analogy-seriously/344/#comment-64460" rel="nofollow">this comment</a>.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt W.</title>
		<link>http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2006/05/incentives-to-repent/245/comment-page-2/#comment-311408</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt W.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Feb 2009 21:20:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2006/05/why-preaching-the-highly-questionable-notion-of-no-progression-between-kingdoms-might-be-a-good-idea/245/#comment-311408</guid>
		<description>Jesef- I have heard that the above is most likely attributed to W.W. Phelps, and not to Joseph Smith. 

I&#039;d be interested in any alternative sources of the above that also site Joseph.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jesef- I have heard that the above is most likely attributed to W.W. Phelps, and not to Joseph Smith. </p>
<p>I&#8217;d be interested in any alternative sources of the above that also site Joseph.</p>
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		<title>By: Jesef</title>
		<link>http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2006/05/incentives-to-repent/245/comment-page-2/#comment-311390</link>
		<dc:creator>Jesef</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Feb 2009 20:46:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2006/05/why-preaching-the-highly-questionable-notion-of-no-progression-between-kingdoms-might-be-a-good-idea/245/#comment-311390</guid>
		<description>There is another possibility that I don&#039;t think has been addressed. It is based on a finite definition/interpretation of the word &quot;eternity&quot; given by the Prophet Joseph Smith found in:

The Answer., Times and Seasons, vol. 5 (January 1844-January 1, 1845), No. 24. Nauvoo, Illinois, Jan. 1, 1845. Whole No. 108, p.758
Well, now, Brother William, when the house of Israel begin to come into the glorious mysteries of the kingdom, and find that Jesus Christ, whose goings forth, as the prophets said, have been from of old, from eternity; and that eternity, agreeably to the records found in the catacombs of Egypt, has been going on in this system, (not this world) almost two thousand five hundred and fifty five millions of years: and to know at the same time, that deists, geologists and others are trying to prove that matter must have existed hundreds of thousands of years;-it almost tempts the flesh to fly to God, or muster faith like Enoch to be translated and see and know as we are seen and known!

(Was this from his translation of one of the facsimiles?) He said &quot;an eternity&quot; equals 2.555 billion years. That is very interesting in light of the &quot;one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day&quot; (2 Peter 3:8; Abr. 3:4). So a year to the Lord would be 365,000 years to us (assuming linear). 2.555B divided by 365K is an even 7000. 7000 years to Him is an eternity to us. The 7000 years is interesting in light of D&amp;C 77 and the earth&#039;s &quot;temporal existence&quot;.

Anyway, if someone had to spend 2.555 billion years (an eternity) in the kingdom/degree-of-glory for which they qualify after this (or each) mortal probation, that would be a huge incentive not to squander this precious opportunity! If true, maybe they spend that time preparing to progress.

However, the term &quot;worlds without end&quot; is also interesting. It could also be that this single mortal probation is totally effective at sifting eternal potential and limits (quality of spirit), i.e. determining who can handle exaltation and who can&#039;t (and never will be able to).

I think we learn from D&amp;C 19:6-12 that we need to be careful how hard we interpret scriptural superlative words (like forever, never, alway, endless, eternal, etc.).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There is another possibility that I don&#8217;t think has been addressed. It is based on a finite definition/interpretation of the word &#8220;eternity&#8221; given by the Prophet Joseph Smith found in:</p>
<p>The Answer., Times and Seasons, vol. 5 (January 1844-January 1, 1845), No. 24. Nauvoo, Illinois, Jan. 1, 1845. Whole No. 108, p.758<br />
Well, now, Brother William, when the house of Israel begin to come into the glorious mysteries of the kingdom, and find that Jesus Christ, whose goings forth, as the prophets said, have been from of old, from eternity; and that eternity, agreeably to the records found in the catacombs of Egypt, has been going on in this system, (not this world) almost two thousand five hundred and fifty five millions of years: and to know at the same time, that deists, geologists and others are trying to prove that matter must have existed hundreds of thousands of years;-it almost tempts the flesh to fly to God, or muster faith like Enoch to be translated and see and know as we are seen and known!</p>
<p>(Was this from his translation of one of the facsimiles?) He said &#8220;an eternity&#8221; equals 2.555 billion years. That is very interesting in light of the &#8220;one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day&#8221; (2 Peter 3:8; Abr. 3:4). So a year to the Lord would be 365,000 years to us (assuming linear). 2.555B divided by 365K is an even 7000. 7000 years to Him is an eternity to us. The 7000 years is interesting in light of D&amp;C 77 and the earth&#8217;s &#8220;temporal existence&#8221;.</p>
<p>Anyway, if someone had to spend 2.555 billion years (an eternity) in the kingdom/degree-of-glory for which they qualify after this (or each) mortal probation, that would be a huge incentive not to squander this precious opportunity! If true, maybe they spend that time preparing to progress.</p>
<p>However, the term &#8220;worlds without end&#8221; is also interesting. It could also be that this single mortal probation is totally effective at sifting eternal potential and limits (quality of spirit), i.e. determining who can handle exaltation and who can&#8217;t (and never will be able to).</p>
<p>I think we learn from D&amp;C 19:6-12 that we need to be careful how hard we interpret scriptural superlative words (like forever, never, alway, endless, eternal, etc.).</p>
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		<title>By: John E Martin</title>
		<link>http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2006/05/incentives-to-repent/245/comment-page-2/#comment-200945</link>
		<dc:creator>John E Martin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Jun 2008 14:09:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2006/05/why-preaching-the-highly-questionable-notion-of-no-progression-between-kingdoms-might-be-a-good-idea/245/#comment-200945</guid>
		<description>The glory of a glorious mystery is  solved, after which it ceases to be mystery.  
Other mystical teachings of Joseph Smith are no longer taught Harold Bloom, an internationally recognized literary critic, and Professor at Yale University uses his 1993 book The American Religion to examine the Latter-day Saint religion, particularly Joseph Smith, whom he refers to as &quot;an authentic religious genius [who] surpassed all Americans, before or since.&quot; But he stated the church is becoming more and more similar to the Orthodox. He said many elements of Joseph&#039;s mystery religion were necessarily veiled or attenuated--and by the late twentieth century, perhaps largely forgotten.

Today many Church members are unaware that these pre Christian teachings were ever taught in the Church as a viable doctrine. The doctrine was no longer taught publicly after about 1898 when Apostle and Counselor in the First Presidency, George Q. Cannon, gave a talk before the first Sunday School conference entitled &quot;Things which Should not be Taught in Sunday School.&quot; In this talk Cannon says he thinks it &quot;not wise&quot; to advocate the Adam God Doctrine, Multiple Mortal Probations,or Plural marriages. 
Others disagreed, Apostle Orson F. Whitney, for example, in a 1919 article in the church publication Improvement Era, &quot;subtly expressed his disappointment&quot; that multiple probations werenâ€™t taught as church doctrine. 
A major reason for opposition .University of Utah historian Gae Lyn Henderson observed in her response to A recent lecture on the subject â€What we might label &#039;second chance theology&#039; takes the fear out of religion, and that fear-free religion loses its power to strictly control human behavior&quot; The teachings were dropped for various reasons -- Many feel it was to a large extent, because the church was taking so much criticism from the secular world for doctrines they were unable to understand. Another view is that the concept of Mortal Probations represents a threat to the very essence of Orthodox Christianity; The early Hebrews believed that &quot;without the shedding of blood there could be no remission of sin.&quot; (Heb. 9:22) They accepted the primitive idea that God could not be appeased except through blood sacrifice, .therefore there was a need for Christâ€™s redemptive sacrifice , The Orthodox never understood that the sacrifice had to be the animal within and not some poor helpless creature without. Crucify the evil within â€œThe Crucifix is the emblem and symbol of the Son of God, not because Jesus shed his blood upon the cross for the sins of man, but because the Christ is crucified perpetually so long as sin remains.&quot; ~The Book of Illuminations
. St. Francis of Assisi And all the creatures, which are under heaven, each according to its nature, serve, know and obey their Creator better than you. â€¢ And even the demons did not crucify Him, but you together with them have crucified Him and even now you crucify (Him) by delighting in vices and sins. ~
If we are to pay for the consequences of our sins ourselves in further lives and attain salvation through our own efforts, the sacrifice of Christ becomes pointless                   
I agree with George Cannon.Discover the truth and then donâ€™t speak unless you can improve the silence I have discovered many privately accept it which publically denounce it.Many who are unfamiliar but have heard of this concept like to refer to  the Mattias incident. About 1835 Joseph Smith was visited by a man, named &quot;Joshua the Minister&quot;. &quot;Joshua&#039;s&quot; real name was Joseph Matthias. He claimed that he a descendant of the Apostle Matthias, and that the soul passed from father to son. Joseph Smith said that Matthias&#039; &quot;doctrine was of the devil&quot; and that he was a murderer (DHC 2:304-05) 
 I first though this was a  contradiction, but Joseph Smith was not saying the concept of mortal probations was a doctrine of the devil, but that Matthias himself was a devil, and &quot;his doctrine&quot; (that the soul passes from father to son) was a doctrine of the devil.  It should be noted that Joseph Smith never used the term transmigration of the soul or reincarnation.
&quot;Joshua the Minister&quot; (Joseph Matthias) was not teaching mortal probations but a strange doctrine of the transmigration of souls from father to son.
Over a period of almost two millennia, the Christian Church  oppressed and brutalized millions of individuals in an attempt to control and contain spirituality.. Today we have kinder, more gentle people who control spirituality and try to explain the mysteries with opinions , assumption  dogmas and doctrines. Truth has many doors waiting to open to those who knock. There is a teaching that is right for everyone  according to their level of learning, or enlightenment, but as Jesus once said from the Gospel of Thomasâ€ for he who seeks, let him find bread and not stoneâ€. 
When the Eagles are silent, The Parrots began to jabber
Michael Otter son, Director of LDS Church affairs, recently said he thought the LDS church was closest to the Unification church in Philosophy.  Members of this church are called â€˜Mooniesâ€™ 
As man is, God once was; as God is, man may become.â€
A Mormon Church leader in denial:, &quot; Now that&#039;s more of a couplet than anything else. That gets into some pretty deep theology that we don&#039;t know very much about 
I don&#039;t know that we teach it. I don&#039;t know that we emphasize it. I haven&#039;t heard it discussed for a long time in public discourse. I don&#039;t know all the circumstances under which that statement was made. I understand the philosophical background behind it. But I don&#039;t know a lot about it and I don&#039;t know that others know a lot about it. [Emphasis added]
The soul comes from God and is destined to become as God.â€  These beliefs became known as the lost doctrines of Christianity. Ancient teachings that were restored by Joseph Smith. We may attempt to cut ourselves off from the philosophy of the ancients, but since they are based on true principles, we shall be forced to return. A river cannot separate itself from its source and we cannot separate ourselves from the teachings of Joseph Smith. There is no harm for the current leaders to distance itself from early church teaching,but  due to the abundance of contradictory evidence, to deny is impossible
Galileo said:â€The authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual.&quot;
Another well respected Church leader Bruce McConkie attacked the theology of  the early church and Joseph Smith  more directly, ridiculing the idea of plural probations. &quot;There is no such thing as a second chance to gain salvation,&quot; he said in a 1980 church address titled &quot;The Seven Deadly heresiesâ€
. I entertained Bruce McConkieâ€™s view briefly and discovered his teachings were opinions on top of assumption  and flavored with dogmas   McConkieâ€™s  thoughts are entertaining to those who want to be taught that God had sex with Mary to produce Jesus, or that Jesus and Satin are brothers. Many seek answers and not opinions and assumptions. The ancients taught  that truth can be found in the unity of though among enlightened thinkers then it is obvious that McConkie is not Plato and Otterson certainly is no Socrates. We should listen to everyone, Always keep an open mind and let the winds of facts and evidence blow you about as though you were a leaf, with no direction of your own. .  Surrender to the truth as quickly as you can.   
Mormon Apostle Hugh Brown said: And while all members should respect, support, and heed the teachings of the authorities of the church, no one should accept a statement and base his or her testimony upon it, no matter who makes it, until he or she has, under mature examination, found it to be true and worthwhile; then one&#039;s logical deductions may be confirmed by the spirit of revelation to his or her spirit, because real conversion must come from within... Speech at BYU, March 29, 1958
â€œLet every man judge according to his own standards, by what he has himself read, not by what others tell himâ€. Albert Einstein
Many members of organized religion are social annimals, only with the herd is he happy. He cares little if the teachings are truth, superstitions or dogmas as long as it is the view of the herd. He does not think for himself, but lets others do it for him if any unusual doctrine is presented to the typical member he will reply &quot;If that is true why hasnâ€™t the prophet or Pope told us?&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The glory of a glorious mystery is  solved, after which it ceases to be mystery.<br />
Other mystical teachings of Joseph Smith are no longer taught Harold Bloom, an internationally recognized literary critic, and Professor at Yale University uses his 1993 book The American Religion to examine the Latter-day Saint religion, particularly Joseph Smith, whom he refers to as &#8220;an authentic religious genius [who] surpassed all Americans, before or since.&#8221; But he stated the church is becoming more and more similar to the Orthodox. He said many elements of Joseph&#8217;s mystery religion were necessarily veiled or attenuated&#8211;and by the late twentieth century, perhaps largely forgotten.</p>
<p>Today many Church members are unaware that these pre Christian teachings were ever taught in the Church as a viable doctrine. The doctrine was no longer taught publicly after about 1898 when Apostle and Counselor in the First Presidency, George Q. Cannon, gave a talk before the first Sunday School conference entitled &#8220;Things which Should not be Taught in Sunday School.&#8221; In this talk Cannon says he thinks it &#8220;not wise&#8221; to advocate the Adam God Doctrine, Multiple Mortal Probations,or Plural marriages.<br />
Others disagreed, Apostle Orson F. Whitney, for example, in a 1919 article in the church publication Improvement Era, &#8220;subtly expressed his disappointment&#8221; that multiple probations werenâ€™t taught as church doctrine.<br />
A major reason for opposition .University of Utah historian Gae Lyn Henderson observed in her response to A recent lecture on the subject â€What we might label &#8216;second chance theology&#8217; takes the fear out of religion, and that fear-free religion loses its power to strictly control human behavior&#8221; The teachings were dropped for various reasons &#8212; Many feel it was to a large extent, because the church was taking so much criticism from the secular world for doctrines they were unable to understand. Another view is that the concept of Mortal Probations represents a threat to the very essence of Orthodox Christianity; The early Hebrews believed that &#8220;without the shedding of blood there could be no remission of sin.&#8221; (Heb. 9:22) They accepted the primitive idea that God could not be appeased except through blood sacrifice, .therefore there was a need for Christâ€™s redemptive sacrifice , The Orthodox never understood that the sacrifice had to be the animal within and not some poor helpless creature without. Crucify the evil within â€œThe Crucifix is the emblem and symbol of the Son of God, not because Jesus shed his blood upon the cross for the sins of man, but because the Christ is crucified perpetually so long as sin remains.&#8221; ~The Book of Illuminations<br />
. St. Francis of Assisi And all the creatures, which are under heaven, each according to its nature, serve, know and obey their Creator better than you. â€¢ And even the demons did not crucify Him, but you together with them have crucified Him and even now you crucify (Him) by delighting in vices and sins. ~<br />
If we are to pay for the consequences of our sins ourselves in further lives and attain salvation through our own efforts, the sacrifice of Christ becomes pointless<br />
I agree with George Cannon.Discover the truth and then donâ€™t speak unless you can improve the silence I have discovered many privately accept it which publically denounce it.Many who are unfamiliar but have heard of this concept like to refer to  the Mattias incident. About 1835 Joseph Smith was visited by a man, named &#8220;Joshua the Minister&#8221;. &#8220;Joshua&#8217;s&#8221; real name was Joseph Matthias. He claimed that he a descendant of the Apostle Matthias, and that the soul passed from father to son. Joseph Smith said that Matthias&#8217; &#8220;doctrine was of the devil&#8221; and that he was a murderer (DHC 2:304-05)<br />
 I first though this was a  contradiction, but Joseph Smith was not saying the concept of mortal probations was a doctrine of the devil, but that Matthias himself was a devil, and &#8220;his doctrine&#8221; (that the soul passes from father to son) was a doctrine of the devil.  It should be noted that Joseph Smith never used the term transmigration of the soul or reincarnation.<br />
&#8220;Joshua the Minister&#8221; (Joseph Matthias) was not teaching mortal probations but a strange doctrine of the transmigration of souls from father to son.<br />
Over a period of almost two millennia, the Christian Church  oppressed and brutalized millions of individuals in an attempt to control and contain spirituality.. Today we have kinder, more gentle people who control spirituality and try to explain the mysteries with opinions , assumption  dogmas and doctrines. Truth has many doors waiting to open to those who knock. There is a teaching that is right for everyone  according to their level of learning, or enlightenment, but as Jesus once said from the Gospel of Thomasâ€ for he who seeks, let him find bread and not stoneâ€.<br />
When the Eagles are silent, The Parrots began to jabber<br />
Michael Otter son, Director of LDS Church affairs, recently said he thought the LDS church was closest to the Unification church in Philosophy.  Members of this church are called â€˜Mooniesâ€™<br />
As man is, God once was; as God is, man may become.â€<br />
A Mormon Church leader in denial:, &#8221; Now that&#8217;s more of a couplet than anything else. That gets into some pretty deep theology that we don&#8217;t know very much about<br />
I don&#8217;t know that we teach it. I don&#8217;t know that we emphasize it. I haven&#8217;t heard it discussed for a long time in public discourse. I don&#8217;t know all the circumstances under which that statement was made. I understand the philosophical background behind it. But I don&#8217;t know a lot about it and I don&#8217;t know that others know a lot about it. [Emphasis added]<br />
The soul comes from God and is destined to become as God.â€  These beliefs became known as the lost doctrines of Christianity. Ancient teachings that were restored by Joseph Smith. We may attempt to cut ourselves off from the philosophy of the ancients, but since they are based on true principles, we shall be forced to return. A river cannot separate itself from its source and we cannot separate ourselves from the teachings of Joseph Smith. There is no harm for the current leaders to distance itself from early church teaching,but  due to the abundance of contradictory evidence, to deny is impossible<br />
Galileo said:â€The authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual.&#8221;<br />
Another well respected Church leader Bruce McConkie attacked the theology of  the early church and Joseph Smith  more directly, ridiculing the idea of plural probations. &#8220;There is no such thing as a second chance to gain salvation,&#8221; he said in a 1980 church address titled &#8220;The Seven Deadly heresiesâ€<br />
. I entertained Bruce McConkieâ€™s view briefly and discovered his teachings were opinions on top of assumption  and flavored with dogmas   McConkieâ€™s  thoughts are entertaining to those who want to be taught that God had sex with Mary to produce Jesus, or that Jesus and Satin are brothers. Many seek answers and not opinions and assumptions. The ancients taught  that truth can be found in the unity of though among enlightened thinkers then it is obvious that McConkie is not Plato and Otterson certainly is no Socrates. We should listen to everyone, Always keep an open mind and let the winds of facts and evidence blow you about as though you were a leaf, with no direction of your own. .  Surrender to the truth as quickly as you can.<br />
Mormon Apostle Hugh Brown said: And while all members should respect, support, and heed the teachings of the authorities of the church, no one should accept a statement and base his or her testimony upon it, no matter who makes it, until he or she has, under mature examination, found it to be true and worthwhile; then one&#8217;s logical deductions may be confirmed by the spirit of revelation to his or her spirit, because real conversion must come from within&#8230; Speech at BYU, March 29, 1958<br />
â€œLet every man judge according to his own standards, by what he has himself read, not by what others tell himâ€. Albert Einstein<br />
Many members of organized religion are social annimals, only with the herd is he happy. He cares little if the teachings are truth, superstitions or dogmas as long as it is the view of the herd. He does not think for himself, but lets others do it for him if any unusual doctrine is presented to the typical member he will reply &#8220;If that is true why hasnâ€™t the prophet or Pope told us?&#8221;</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Geoff J</title>
		<link>http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2006/05/incentives-to-repent/245/comment-page-2/#comment-19339</link>
		<dc:creator>Geoff J</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Jun 2006 15:49:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2006/05/why-preaching-the-highly-questionable-notion-of-no-progression-between-kingdoms-might-be-a-good-idea/245/#comment-19339</guid>
		<description>Ryan,

I actually have no objections to a member of the church believing there is no progression between kingdoms (see my post that says just that &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2006/05/incentives-to-repent/245/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;).  I did object to the opening statement in your comment though: &quot;Why don&#039;t we all just stick to the teachings of the scriptures and of the prophets, instead of relying on our own philosophies on this issue?&quot;.  As you can see, I am sticking with the words of prophets when I say there is the possibility of progression between kingdoms.  It is unwise and uncharitable to imply that those who disagree with your personal opinion are rejecting prophets in favor of their own philosophies.  That accusation could go both ways in these cases and is utterly unhelpful.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ryan,</p>
<p>I actually have no objections to a member of the church believing there is no progression between kingdoms (see my post that says just that <a href="http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2006/05/incentives-to-repent/245/" rel="nofollow">here</a>).  I did object to the opening statement in your comment though: &#8220;Why don&#8217;t we all just stick to the teachings of the scriptures and of the prophets, instead of relying on our own philosophies on this issue?&#8221;.  As you can see, I am sticking with the words of prophets when I say there is the possibility of progression between kingdoms.  It is unwise and uncharitable to imply that those who disagree with your personal opinion are rejecting prophets in favor of their own philosophies.  That accusation could go both ways in these cases and is utterly unhelpful.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Mark Butler</title>
		<link>http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2006/05/incentives-to-repent/245/comment-page-2/#comment-19307</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Butler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Jun 2006 08:27:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2006/05/why-preaching-the-highly-questionable-notion-of-no-progression-between-kingdoms-might-be-a-good-idea/245/#comment-19307</guid>
		<description>A few relevant excerpts from that discourse of Brigham Young&#039;s, for those that do not want to read it all the way through:

&lt;blockquote&gt;
Now about the rib. As for the Lord taking a rib out of Adam&#039;s side to make a woman of, he took one out of my side just as much.
&quot;But,&quot; brother Brigham, &quot;would you make it appear that Moses did not tell the truth?&quot; 
No, not a particle more than I would that your mother did not tell the truth, when she told you that little Billy came from a hollow toad stool. I would not accuse your mother of lying, any more (p. 15) than I would Moses; the people in the days of Moses wanted to know things that were not for them, the same as your children do, when they want to know where their little brother came from, and he answered them according to their folly, the same as you did your children.
...
I tell you more, Adam is the Father of our spirits. He lived upon an earth; he did abide his creation, and did honor his calling and priesthood, and obeyed his master or Lord, and probably many of his wives did the same, and they lived, and died upon an earth, and then were resurrected again to immortality and eternal life.
&quot;Did he resurrect himself?&quot; you inquire. I want to throw out a few hints upon the resurrection as it seems to come within the circuit of my ideas whether it ought to come within the circuit of my remarks or not. I believe we have already acknowledged the truth established that no person can officiate in any office he has not been subject to himself and been legally appointed to fill. That no person in this kingdom can officiate in any ordinance he himself has not obeyed; consequently no being who has not been resurrected possesses the keys of the power or resurrection. That you have been told often. Adam therefore was resurrected by someone who had been resurrected.
...
I reckon that Father Adam was a resurrected being, with his wives and posterity, and in the Celestial kingdom they were crowed with glory, immortality, and eternal lives, with thrones, principalities, and powers: and it was said to him it is your right to organize the elements; and to your creations and posterity there shall be no end, but you shall add kingdom to kingdom, and throne to throne; and still behold that vast eternity of unorganized matter. Adam then, was a resurrected being; and I reckon, our spirits and the spirits of all the human family were begotten by Adam, and born of Eve.
&quot;How are we going to know this?&quot; I reckon it.
And I reckon that Adam came into the Garden of Eden, and did actually eat of the fruit that he, himself planted; and I reckon there was a previous understanding, and the whole plan was previously calculated, before the Garden of Eden was made, that he would reduce his posterity to sin, misery, darkness, wickedness, wretchedness, and to the power of the devil, that they might be prepared, for an exaltation, for without this they could not receive one.
...

I tell you, when you see your Father in the heavens, you will see Adam; when you see your Mother that bears your spirit, you will see mother Eve. And when you see yourselves there, you have gained your exaltation; you have honored your calling here on the earth; your body has returned to its mother earth; and somebody has broken the chains of death that bound you, and given you a resurrection.
(Brigham Young, Unpublished Discourse, LDS General Conference, October 8, 1854)
&lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A few relevant excerpts from that discourse of Brigham Young&#8217;s, for those that do not want to read it all the way through:</p>
<blockquote><p>
Now about the rib. As for the Lord taking a rib out of Adam&#8217;s side to make a woman of, he took one out of my side just as much.<br />
&#8220;But,&#8221; brother Brigham, &#8220;would you make it appear that Moses did not tell the truth?&#8221;<br />
No, not a particle more than I would that your mother did not tell the truth, when she told you that little Billy came from a hollow toad stool. I would not accuse your mother of lying, any more (p. 15) than I would Moses; the people in the days of Moses wanted to know things that were not for them, the same as your children do, when they want to know where their little brother came from, and he answered them according to their folly, the same as you did your children.<br />
&#8230;<br />
I tell you more, Adam is the Father of our spirits. He lived upon an earth; he did abide his creation, and did honor his calling and priesthood, and obeyed his master or Lord, and probably many of his wives did the same, and they lived, and died upon an earth, and then were resurrected again to immortality and eternal life.<br />
&#8220;Did he resurrect himself?&#8221; you inquire. I want to throw out a few hints upon the resurrection as it seems to come within the circuit of my ideas whether it ought to come within the circuit of my remarks or not. I believe we have already acknowledged the truth established that no person can officiate in any office he has not been subject to himself and been legally appointed to fill. That no person in this kingdom can officiate in any ordinance he himself has not obeyed; consequently no being who has not been resurrected possesses the keys of the power or resurrection. That you have been told often. Adam therefore was resurrected by someone who had been resurrected.<br />
&#8230;<br />
I reckon that Father Adam was a resurrected being, with his wives and posterity, and in the Celestial kingdom they were crowed with glory, immortality, and eternal lives, with thrones, principalities, and powers: and it was said to him it is your right to organize the elements; and to your creations and posterity there shall be no end, but you shall add kingdom to kingdom, and throne to throne; and still behold that vast eternity of unorganized matter. Adam then, was a resurrected being; and I reckon, our spirits and the spirits of all the human family were begotten by Adam, and born of Eve.<br />
&#8220;How are we going to know this?&#8221; I reckon it.<br />
And I reckon that Adam came into the Garden of Eden, and did actually eat of the fruit that he, himself planted; and I reckon there was a previous understanding, and the whole plan was previously calculated, before the Garden of Eden was made, that he would reduce his posterity to sin, misery, darkness, wickedness, wretchedness, and to the power of the devil, that they might be prepared, for an exaltation, for without this they could not receive one.<br />
&#8230;</p>
<p>I tell you, when you see your Father in the heavens, you will see Adam; when you see your Mother that bears your spirit, you will see mother Eve. And when you see yourselves there, you have gained your exaltation; you have honored your calling here on the earth; your body has returned to its mother earth; and somebody has broken the chains of death that bound you, and given you a resurrection.<br />
(Brigham Young, Unpublished Discourse, LDS General Conference, October 8, 1854)
</p></blockquote>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Mark Butler</title>
		<link>http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2006/05/incentives-to-repent/245/comment-page-2/#comment-19303</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Butler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Jun 2006 07:57:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2006/05/why-preaching-the-highly-questionable-notion-of-no-progression-between-kingdoms-might-be-a-good-idea/245/#comment-19303</guid>
		<description>Joseph F. Smith, Joseph Fielding Smith and Bruce R. McConkie were among several in that era who &quot;lied&quot; about what Brigham Young taught about Adam-God.  Denied, lied, dissembled, whatever.  This all came out with the &quot;New&quot; Mormon History in the sixties, seventies, and eighties to great embarrassment of the Church.

For example BRM wrote in a letter to Eugene England, February 19, 1981:

&lt;blockquote&gt;In that same devotional speech I said: &quot;There are those who believe or say they believe that Adam is our father and our God, that he is the father of our spirits and our bodies, and that he is the one we worship.&quot; I, of course, indicated the utter absurdity of this doctrine and said it was totally false.

Since then I have received violent reactions from Ogden Kraut and other cultists in which they have expounded upon the views of Brigham Young and others of the early Brethren relative to Adam. They have plain and clear quotations saying all of the things about Adam which I say are false. The quotations are in our literature and form the basis of a worship system followed by many of the cultists who have been excommunicated from the Church. I also received, of course, your material in which you quote from Brigham Young and others of the early Brethren saying that God is progressing in knowledge.
...
Yes, President Young did teach that Adam was the father of our spirits, and all the related things that the cultists ascribe to him. This, however, is not true. He expressed views that are out of harmony with the gospel.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

http://magazine.mormonfundamentalism.org/McConkie_England.htm

BRM goes on to claim that Brigham Young also believed the opposite view, that Adam was not the father of our spirits, essentially accusing him of revelatory or theological schizophrenia (in the vulgar sense of the term).  He also claims that Brigham Young both did and didn&#039;t believe in the proposition that God was progressing in knowledge.

So essentially BRM&#039;s position is that at best Brigham Young was the worst sort of loose cannon, creating doctrines that are now the basis of apostate cults willy nilly in general conference.  That is fine, of course, as long as he is honest about it.  Other leaders have generally claimed that Brigham Young was misinterpreted, which is ridiculous.

This October 8, 1854 discourse is the locus classicus for the doctrine:

http://www.xmission.com/~country/by/100854_2.htm

Now I happen to agree that Brigham Young&#039;s A/G doctrine was wrong in certain critical respects, but he definitely taught it.  In other respects however, I think Brigham Young understood the truth as taught by Joseph Smith far better than BRM ever did, in this life, in particular in regard to eternal progression, the fall, baptism, the state of the telestial glory, and all the other points that separate classical Mormonism from neo-Hellenistic Mormonism.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Joseph F. Smith, Joseph Fielding Smith and Bruce R. McConkie were among several in that era who &#8220;lied&#8221; about what Brigham Young taught about Adam-God.  Denied, lied, dissembled, whatever.  This all came out with the &#8220;New&#8221; Mormon History in the sixties, seventies, and eighties to great embarrassment of the Church.</p>
<p>For example BRM wrote in a letter to Eugene England, February 19, 1981:</p>
<blockquote><p>In that same devotional speech I said: &#8220;There are those who believe or say they believe that Adam is our father and our God, that he is the father of our spirits and our bodies, and that he is the one we worship.&#8221; I, of course, indicated the utter absurdity of this doctrine and said it was totally false.</p>
<p>Since then I have received violent reactions from Ogden Kraut and other cultists in which they have expounded upon the views of Brigham Young and others of the early Brethren relative to Adam. They have plain and clear quotations saying all of the things about Adam which I say are false. The quotations are in our literature and form the basis of a worship system followed by many of the cultists who have been excommunicated from the Church. I also received, of course, your material in which you quote from Brigham Young and others of the early Brethren saying that God is progressing in knowledge.<br />
&#8230;<br />
Yes, President Young did teach that Adam was the father of our spirits, and all the related things that the cultists ascribe to him. This, however, is not true. He expressed views that are out of harmony with the gospel.</p></blockquote>
<p><a href="http://magazine.mormonfundamentalism.org/McConkie_England.htm" rel="nofollow">http://magazine.mormonfundamentalism.org/McConkie_England.htm</a></p>
<p>BRM goes on to claim that Brigham Young also believed the opposite view, that Adam was not the father of our spirits, essentially accusing him of revelatory or theological schizophrenia (in the vulgar sense of the term).  He also claims that Brigham Young both did and didn&#8217;t believe in the proposition that God was progressing in knowledge.</p>
<p>So essentially BRM&#8217;s position is that at best Brigham Young was the worst sort of loose cannon, creating doctrines that are now the basis of apostate cults willy nilly in general conference.  That is fine, of course, as long as he is honest about it.  Other leaders have generally claimed that Brigham Young was misinterpreted, which is ridiculous.</p>
<p>This October 8, 1854 discourse is the locus classicus for the doctrine:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.xmission.com/~country/by/100854_2.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.xmission.com/~country/by/100854_2.htm</a></p>
<p>Now I happen to agree that Brigham Young&#8217;s A/G doctrine was wrong in certain critical respects, but he definitely taught it.  In other respects however, I think Brigham Young understood the truth as taught by Joseph Smith far better than BRM ever did, in this life, in particular in regard to eternal progression, the fall, baptism, the state of the telestial glory, and all the other points that separate classical Mormonism from neo-Hellenistic Mormonism.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Mark Butler</title>
		<link>http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2006/05/incentives-to-repent/245/comment-page-2/#comment-19297</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Butler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Jun 2006 06:52:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2006/05/why-preaching-the-highly-questionable-notion-of-no-progression-between-kingdoms-might-be-a-good-idea/245/#comment-19297</guid>
		<description>circa 1958 that is.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>circa 1958 that is.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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