I appreciate this post and the dialogue that has followed it. I echo the scriptures: “whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth” in my own understanding of these things. I am usually one of the first or only people in a group to point out that Joseph Smith’s First Vision was described as a Vision, and has become increasingly physical in understanding and presentation as the years have passed. I think it is good to keep an open mind on this subject. Anchoring your faith, or even resting it too strongly on the idea that it was a tangible personal visitation in the flesh (or any other potentially false idea) is a recipe for spiritual disaster.

Yes, all spirit is matter, but this only means the vision was created in the mind through an ultimately physical process.

Hehe. You are misreading my motivations but it is amusing to see what you think they are. In that particular comment I wasn’t (and still am not) sure exactly what you were referring too. I assure you it is not because I am “petrified” that your theory is correct.

I must say that your last set of questions are excellent and thought provoking, though. However they would fit better in the other thread so I will respond there to reduce the topic-overlap a little.

RT is indeed a good moderator but I think we can make it through this without getting too riled up if he doesn’t come around soon. I got some ideas from your #79 that might help us understand one another better (if only this were a section 50 scenario… ;-) )

I think I need to wait for RT to come back. As you can tell I’m getting a little riled up. >:-l

It made perfect sense to you. You have shown that you more or less understand my argument and paper fairly well, but your refusal to engage it on its own terms seems to betray an underlying fear. I am personally comfortable enough in the belief that our leaders are authorized and do receive inspiration but for some reason do not reveal anything any more. You seem absolutely petrified by this thought.

When revelation stops, it is bad. Plain and simple. Moroni says “if these things have ceased, then has faith ceased, and awful is the state of man.”

Nephi says:

24 Therefore, wo be unto him that is at aease• in Zion!
25 Wo be unto him that crieth: All is well!…
27 Yea, wo be unto him that saith: We have received, and we aneed• no more!…
29 Wo be unto him that shall say: We have received the word of God, and we aneed• bno• more of the word of God, for we have enough!
30 For behold, thus saith the Lord God: I will give unto the children of men line upon line, precept upon aprecept•, here a little and there a little; and blessed are those who hearken unto my precepts, and lend an ear unto my counsel, for they shall learn bwisdom•; for unto him that creceiveth• I will give dmore•; and from them that shall say, We have enough, from them shall be taken away even that which they have.

And again Joseph said:

10 And again, verily I say unto you, I would that ye should always remember, and always retain in your aminds what those bgifts• are, that are given unto the church.
11 For all have not every agift• given unto them; for there are many gifts, and to every man is given a gift by the Spirit of God.
12 To some is given one, and to some is given another, that all may be profited thereby.
13 To some it is given by the aHoly Ghost to know that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and that he was crucified for the sins of the world.
14 To others it is given to abelieve• on their words, that they also might have eternal life if they continue faithful.

Here is Paul:

8 For to one is agiven• by the bSpirit• the cword• of dwisdom; to another the word of eknowledge• by the same Spirit;
9 To another afaith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of bhealing by the same Spirit;
10 To another the working of amiracles; to another bprophecy; to another cdiscerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of dtongues:
11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ…
14 For the body is not one member, but many.
15 If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
16 And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
17 If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?
18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him…
27 Now ye are the body of aChrist, and bmembers in particular.
28 And God hath set some in the church, first aapostles, secondarily bprophets, thirdly cteachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, dgovernments, diversities of tongues.
29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of amiracles?
30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
31 But acovet• earnestly the best bgifts: and yet shew I unto you a more cexcellent• way.

Not all have the spirit of prophecy. What are they supposed to do? I apparently don’t have that gift. What am I to do? Where are the words which I am supposed to believe on? Why is nobody prophecying in order to benefit the church as a whole?

Why can’t we have new material to discuss openly in church? Surely we can’t do this with personal revelation, only official revelation. Your position makes me ask, why should I be a part of the church at all, if it is all upon myself to receive revelation? Why do I need leaders at all?

This quote from John (at the “Nation of Prophets” thread) is rather damaging it would seem to your account of spiritual visions and the like. Visions, Sounds and Palpable objects can be experienced by more than one person at the same time. If all this is really happening “inside” each individual person then we really can’t be too sure that they really did see or hear the same thing at all.

Gook Ol’ Bruce R. M. said: “Those who saw and handled and hefted and examined the plates of Mormon, for instance, may bear witness in words of soberness that they actually exist. Indeed, such witnesses are sent to bear testimony so that others shall be left without excuse when they stand before the bar of the Judge of all the earth.”

If revelations are not as physical as they sound then there is an awful big excuse left for people to appeal to, namely that it was all imaginary, inside their heads. Whether this be true or not is not the point.

I can say that you are right that I should not have implied that you specifically said current leader are not receiving revelations. You have clarified that it is the fact that they are not publishing prophesies that is making you nervous.

It seems to me that your examples of Gold Plates or the resurrected Lord appearing have nothing to do with current prophets and their prophesies — those things must be revealed to us by God. “Revealed to us by God” is the definition of revelation so your argument there made no sense to me. Perhaps you are insisting that our leaders should have such experiences, tell you about it, and then let you get a prompting to believe it? If so, why be satisfied with a second hand account? Why not get the revelation yourself?

If in fact your intent is to motivate “people to seek higher forms of revelation” then all of our debating has been in vain because that is what I am trying to accomplish too.

You are only dodging the question. Let me rephrase it: “Once the culture in general recognizes the distinction between the lower forms of intelligence and the higher forms which we no longer hear anything about, they will embrace the “quest for the higher forms.”" I should also mention that I was answering YOUR question. Who cares whether you accept the assumptions or not?

“My question is why should anyone believe your preaching?”

Because it is true. That was the reaons you gave me wasn’t it? The difference between your giving me that answer and my giving it to you is that mine is not only true, but actually has objective evidence to back it up. Nobody is saying “thus saith the lord…”, “I heard..” or “I saw..” anymore. This is not opinion. It is a verifiable fact which all must acknowledge.

“how on earth do you know it even exists in the form you define it?”

Because you read about it all over the scriptures and I’ve felt inspired to believe that they are telling the truth. Do you think they were lying? Again, the “out of body” response accomplishes nothing, so don’t repeat it here.

“current church leaders don’t receive enough revelation”

When have I ever declared that they don’t receive enough revelation? I’ve said that they don’t talk about it anymore, but that’s as far as I’ve been willing to say with any amount of confidence. You keep assuming that I’m going further than I am and this is motivating your irrational and emotional responses.

“how would they ever be verified except through further revelation?”

Easy, passing around gold plates, letting everybody comes forward to touch his hands and feet, More than one person independently testifying of the same thing, etc. I should also mention that you were the one who brought in the court analogy, not me. I’m the one who is claiming that even revelation, as I have defined it, is still somewhat subjective, but far less so than emotions and hunches. I shouldn’t have to defend things which I’m not saying.

“Are you certain that God agrees with you?”

Yes. Like I said, its a verifiable fact, not mere opinion.

“Have you received revelation that God has problems with the way the church is being run?”

No but many other prophets have claimed that when revelation ceases its a bad thing. So revelation has been given on the subject, simply not through me. Besides, you are again bordering on holding me accountable for things I did not say. When did I ever claim that God definitely has problems with church leadership, or even that I have definite problems with it? I would prefer more revelation, and I’m worried by the silence, but I’ve never gone much further than that.

“If not then how exactly do you think this “preaching” you have been doing is helping God out?”

Contrary to what some may say, I believe that a reality check is pretty much always healthy. I fail to see how my motivating people to seek higher forms of revelation is not helping God.

“The history of the world is full of people that opposed and criticized God’s servants and thought they were doing Him a favor after all.”

And most of the time I believe that they were. Of course here you are again throwing me in a camp which I do not belong. How have I come out in open opposition and criticism on any church leaders? By stating the fact that they don’t prophecy anymore? Was that ever a secret?

“our current leaders are not deficient in their prophetic calling or unusual in the style of their leadership of the true church.”

Again, being prophetic is not a calling. It is a gift which is separate from the issue of whether they are authorized or doing good things which their responsibilities. I’ve never thought any thing less of them. But let’s not give them credit for things which they aren’t even willing to claim for themselves.

“Are current prophets doing what God wants them to do or not?”

I think they are doing a good job. There is always room for improvement, but I don’t think that I could do any better.

“If they are doing just what God wants them to do for us then they are 100% correct in their behavior.”

Since when are things ever so black and white? 100% sounds like infallibility to me. In fact, that is the very definition of it isn’t it?

“If God is dissatisfied with their performance then they need to repent.”

Of course he is to a certain extent and of course they do to a certain extent. Even they admit that.

I am tempted to argue the finer points of the translation of the name “Jesus Christ” or how Alma’s private conversation with his son eventually made its way into public record, but I suspect it is all moot. The intent of my bringing the comparison with BoM prophets up was to show that our current leaders are not deficient in their prophetic calling or unusual in the style of their leadership of the true church. Of course this is all a workaround to asking the only important question: Are current prophets doing what God wants them to do or not? If they are doing just what God wants them to do for us then they are 100% correct in their behavior. If God is dissatisfied with their performance then they need to repent. What is the only way to know the answer to this question? — We need to ask God his opinion and get a clear answer.