I agree with the points you are making — at least I think I do. Did I say some things that are not in harmony with #12? Perhaps I am interpreting some of your statements differently than you are?

Excellent point.

It sounds like we are in agreement that the main issue is what we are. If we are not the type of person that naturally accomplishes the weightier matters of the law then the ordinances themselves will not save us. I agree with your comment (and I think the others here do to).

The question we are still wrangling with is if the afterlife has three actual divisions or if that is only a metaphor signifying a continuum of rewards. I think actual justice requires a continuum since the quality of our characters can be graded on a continuum of how godlike we or are not.

Eric,

You pose an interesting question. I am leaning toward the idea that the ordinances in and of themselves are not what drives the reward system but rather the actual character of the person. Character is created by personal change, aka repentance. Therefore I think the covenants mostly help us to continue to repent and change. If a person who has made none of the required covenants leaves this life more intrinsically Christ-like than one who has I think the more Christ-like person will receive the greater reward.

This is not to downgrade the importance of the covenants, but rather putting a higher premium on strict obedience to those covenants. Think about what we are told in the temple about the results of not living up to every covenant we make with God there. Yet how many are really living the law of consecration fully? I don’t see any easy way around that sort of thing. One major advantage of being baptized in the restored Church is the Gift of the Holy Ghost. But again that is really not a useful Gift unless we remain qualified to always have His spirit to be with us. So it all brings us back to what we are, not what ordinances we received. A person who has made all the covenants in this life had better be among the most righteous at the day of judgment because it is like the person in the parable who got 5 talents. God will not give us special treatment if we are not sufficiently changed our natures for the better. If someone else shows up and is more Christ-like than me without having the Gift of the Holy Ghost to assist them in this life I’m certain they will be rewarded much more generously than I will…

I agree. And I like the idea about the varying degrees of light because I have always thought of the kingdoms as more or less symbolic of the many mansions. In other words, the joy we experience and our proximity to Christ and the spirit will all be in relation to who we are as people.

If we see the kingdoms as internally equal states, it seems to cause some problems. Supposing you rank the righteousness of all humanity, where is the line drawn between the telestial and terrestial kingdoms? I would imagine that there’s only a miniscule difference, if any, between the person at the top of the Tel and the person at the bottom of the Ter. I can’t imagine that there would be such a major divide between two people so similar.

I think that Don’s point and your response are interesting. Part of the problem in trying to figure this out is that we don’t really know how likely people are to accept the gospel/ordinances in the next life. Will it be as rare a thing as it is in this world, or will any generally good person see the light and accept it wholeheartedly in the spirit world? I think I, and most others, lean towards the latter. Accepting the former, however, creates the possibility that you could have an extremely Christ-like person who has rejected the ordinances. Is that possible? If it is, it would seem to lend some weight to Don’s idea of a more-righteous person actually possessing a lesser state.

Matthew 23:23:

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

I might add that pure love/charity is high on the Lord’s list.

1 Cor 13:13

And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

And, John 17:3:

And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

So, I submit that our designation to a certain kingdom may depend on the quality of our relationships with the three members of the Godhead who administer those kingdoms. Some examples:

1) We need to examine not only what ARE the “weightier matters of the law”, but how we FEEL about those things. How does our attitude toward, concern for, and love for these “matters” compare to the feelings that God and Jesus have for these things ?

2) Can we even know how our feelings compare with God and Christ’s feelings if we have not taken sufficient time to get to know them ?

3) There is a big difference between praying every day because the Spirit prompts you to do so and praying every day because you worship God in humility with all your heart and can’t wait to learn something new about Him.

4) There is big difference between serving others because you learned at Church that it is the right thing to do, versus serving others because you are literally following God’s direction and, in essence, having frequent experiences with Him even though you aren’t physically in His presence.

In this world we learn the reality of “birds of a feather”. Given the choice, we will spend most of our free time with persons that we are comfortable with. That’s a clue about the life to come.

-B.

What I am implying is that here on earth most are living in the telestial “kingdom” because they are living a telestial law and that others are currently living in terrestrial “kingdom” because they live the terrestrial law and receive the attendant joy, peace, etc that comes with that obedience. Perhaps some are even living a celestial law and feel the internal celestial peace, joy, and power that attend that obedience. I doubt there are many who actually qualify for that though because it requires total consecration according to our doctrine and very few seem to be able or willing to consecrate everything yet. But I suspect if someone was living the celestial law they would be the ones who would have the faith to do as Jacob claimed:

…and our faith becometh unshaken, insomuch that we truly can command in the name of Jesus and the very trees obey us, or the mountains, or the waves of the sea. (Jacob 4:6)

Don,

This idea of the top person in a lower kingdom being more righteous than the bottom person in another kingdom is exactly what I am disagreeing with. I don’t think these kingdoms are places or holding bins as commonly believed but rather states of being and the attendant joy, peace, etc that comes with those states of being. If my theory is right then by definition the scenario you describe cannot happen. The covenants associated withthe ordinances help change us, but they don’t work if we don’t actually repent and change. That is why we “say nothing but repentance” to one another even after the ordinances have been performed.